Live data from Hacker News

Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

idealista.com

471–480 of 930 posts

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a free shelter is fundamental to a person's freedom, arguing otherwise is immoral.

And who has to build that shelter, and what about their freedom?

> And who has to build that shelter

Jimmy & Rosalynn Carter

https://www.habitat.org/carter-work-project

> what about their freedom?

I think they made good use of it.

We in the USA are the wealthiest nation in the history of the world. We could solve homelessness and hunger tomorrow.

I'm not saying that people should lose their property to squatters, that's not the solution. I'm saying that we could build ~300,000 new homes and give them to people for free and it would barely register on the national budget.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who has to build that shelter, and what about their freedom?

No one has to build that shelter, no one should be coerced to that.

So nobody is forced to build shelter, but if someone does build one for themselves, it can be taken?

Just trying to understand how this right to shelter works.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#473
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complex problem, I understand that rent is a sensitive issue. But sustaining a system that criminals actively exploit is probably resulting in the worst possible outcome for everyone. He did not rent the place out, but preferred to keep it to themselves as a pleasant place to spend a few weeks to months as they are getting old now. But after this incident he sold it quickly.

> He did not rent the place out, but preferred to keep it to themselves as a pleasant place to spend a few weeks to months as they are getting old now. But after this incident he sold it quickly. If it's their primary residence, then it's not considered "occupation" but rather "breaking and entering", and contacting the local police would get the criminals removed quickly, without much fuss. It sounds more like it wa…

I'm just curious because I have a only very limited understanding of the situation there but surely it must have been considerably worse back in 2007-2008 compared to now? Since housing prices seem to still be ~30% lower inflation adjusted currently than they were before the GFC.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#474

"The rise of okupation"... but they make no references to data. Here is the data (in Spanish) [1]. The difference between trespassing (that somebody enters in the house you live) and usurpation (the house is yours but is not where you live) is very important. Both problems are way less prevalent than what appears on the media (see [1]), but trespassing is waaay lower (and as the owner you have better mechanisms to re…

If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare…

> Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare state than Denmark.

If only Spain could profit from helping murder brown people in 3rd world countries overseas and by speculating on banking, then forcing the bailout of those sunken PRIVATE banks on other countries and then forcing them to privatize their national assets to buy those assets dirt cheap - like how Northern Europe did to Southern Europe, including Spain. Forcing the Spanish taxpayer to bail out sunken private Northern European banks and then forcing austerity on them to have them privatize their society. The biggest bank scam of the century in every way.

And yet, all of you Northern Europeans seem to want to move south to that 'economically illiterate' society and its 'failing' welfare state for some reason. To the extent that you literally filled out some cities and zones. What you say and what you do contradict.

> illiterate

You don't know even the topic that you are talking about, yet you are talking about economic illiteracy. And the one thing that you have that you refer to, is an American author and its book. As if a random American author is the all-determining authority for anything.

> you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments

Okupas force the property owners to rent their properties to avoid losing them. It increases property available for rent - does not decrease it. Again, you don't know what you are talking about, and no, Matthew Yglesias, the glorious American author that you slapped everywhere in this thread as if he was a prophet, is not a reference that changes this particular phenomenon either.

This is what happens where 'economically illiterate leftist lawlessness' doesn't exist.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homes-for-sale-affordable-housi...

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#475
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better not leave for work or anywhere else then.

Worth looking up the difference between trespassing on property someone actively lives in, and "okupas" occupying otherwise empty buildings. Once you understand the difference, you'd understand that you can continue living your life like normal :)

I don't see the difference. How many hours or days can one be away. 1 hour, 1 day, 1 year?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has to build that shelter, no one should be coerced to that.

So nobody is forced to build shelter, but if someone does build one for themselves, it can be taken? Just trying to understand how this right to shelter works.

It's crucial to understand that if we let a person that build a shelter keep it for eternity then that person can build many shelters such that there will be no land left for other people to build their shelters on.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've listed all the ways to make sure no new houses are built. Update: > And also, if you’re gonna buy property please do so to actually live there yourself or to house a business that you own and actually operate. This means that I can't rent. But as a person who lives somewhere, or a person who operates a business, I'd rather rent than own — I don't want to have all the headache of owning the property, and I don'…

> Even if I had enough money to buy a house, I would put that money into a bank or investment fund that buys thousands of different homes and rents it out so I'm not that exposed to risks of owning any single piece of property. Well, but imagine that houses cost a fraction of their current price. That’s the point. A home shouldn’t have to be this ginormous investment that you have to slave and save for many years to…

> Well, but imagine that houses cost a fraction of their current price. That’s the point.

That's not how your proposed measures would work in reality. You would just make market less effective and create a lot of problems who want to participate in it.

It would be much harder to find a place to rent, and it would be without any contracts or legal protections, as most landlords would look as if they're actually living in the apartments. A cottage industry of people who serve as fictive "owners" of the apartments will spring up for others who want to invest in real estate. A lot of government officials will be hired to "ensure" that you're buying a house or an apartment for yourself. They will take bribes to look the other way, and they will have a huge backlog of apartments to check.

Apartments and houses that are listed for sale officially (not on the emergent black market) may have their list prices come down, but it would be very hard to get access to them and actually buy one. Probably further government regulation will ensure that some queue system is in place so that people who "need it the most" (bribed the official in charge) would get preferential treatment, and as a result it would take years to actually buy one. Commercial investment in real estate will plummet, so the government will take over. Residential construction will soon balloon in cost and go down in quality.

Your ideas are not new. They, or variations of them, have been tried, a lot. Interventions in the free markets always have a lot of unintended consequences of second and third order, and as more regulations are patched on top in the attempts to fix them, the situation just becomes worse and worse.

Landlords are a convenient scrapegoat — but if you actually dive into how the market works, you have to acknowledge that they provide a very important financial service. Nobody on the real estate has any kind of monopolistic influence (except the government), and nobody is able to artificially inflate the prices. The world is entering a stage of ultra-urbanisation, where small and ordinary towns die down and the biggest centers grow more and more important — so real estate in them balloons, because there's more and more demand for it. If you are just looking for a place to live, there's a lot of it around the world. For example, a very nice 2-bedroom apartment in Nha Trang in a new building costs around $300 a month — it has an underground parking and all the infrastructure of a modern city around it. Especially in the age of remote work, "high costs" of real estate are not about people living on the street — it's about people not being able to live where they used to live before.

You can blame Airbnbs and hotels — but it all comes down to the fact that of other people on the market are ready to pay more than you do and have the cash for it, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to outbid you. If somebody used to rent an apartment in the neighbourhood for 20 years but now can't afford it — it may be sad for this person, but it's not a reason why someone else who wants and can pay more for renting the same place shouldn't be able to do so. I guess you're an American? Guess what — more and more people come to your country from all around the world, and they (we) just outcompete you.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#478
When I moved here to Barcelona, it seemed like many "squats" were punk and artist taking over unused or abandoned large spaces. Many we even open to the public and had events, and some were even part of the local community. Nowadays it's more often drug addicts and criminals and mafias taking over uninhibited homes (even when people are on vacation), who terrorize the neighborhoods.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#479
post #234
post #165

Idealista and all the real estate companies are the morons feeding the problem by putting the country for rent. They’re the reason people can’t afford a house and we have to talk about okupas in the first place.

I was wondering what kind of website this is given how obviously it is siding with landlords. Squatting is only a problem that can happen if housing remains unoccupied. And it's more likely to happen if there is no strong communal network in the area (because most people don't want squatters moving in next to them because of the implications). The easiest way to have housing remain unoccupied for long periods of time…

> I was wondering what kind of website

You do know that it's run by a VC company? Not particularly surprising that most most people generally support the protection of property rights

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#480
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better not leave for work or anywhere else then.

Worth looking up the difference between trespassing on property someone actively lives in, and "okupas" occupying otherwise empty buildings. Once you understand the difference, you'd understand that you can continue living your life like normal :)

[deleted]
Post reply on HN