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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#121
post #115
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's a public policy failure for land to sit vacant like that. Then the government should buy the land. >> For a very clear example: if you're surrounded by starving people, and you own a warehouse full of food that you plan to let rot because you can't be bothered, the government absolutely does have the right to tell you what to do with that food. Let’s not use other examples and argumentation by analogy when we…

>> It's a public policy failure for land to sit vacant like that. > Then the government should buy the land. No, I don't think so. > You own a building and the building is not currently occupied. The building is unsightly but structurally sound. Does/should the government have the right to make you surrender that building without compensation (because that’s what forfeit means) simply due to it being unoccupied? Why?…

>> The legal principle has a long, long history across many different legal systems.

Cite them.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#122
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an illegal operation. Under that sort of restriction, any building occupied would either need to be occupied by the registered owner or have a registered lease. If those aren't found, the people are evicted. The point is to ensure that everyone knows that you need to have a registered document to stay somewhere so nobody takes those deals. Then on the landlord side, you need to enforce substantial fines for any…

I appreciate your response. I feel the same as the other commenter: the asymmetry between "a steep fine" and "losing your home" is enormous. But "what happens if the fine is enormous" (say, the landlord also stands to lose their home) is an interesting thought experiment - how big does the punishment need to be to "fix" the power imbalance?

That's not really a functional asymmetry. All you need is to pass a minimal threshold to disincentivize the behavior. A fine that outweighs potential illegal rent performs that task.

It also depends on what you mean by losing one's home. That's not an issue for people who would sign the written agreements. Afain, we want a disincentive to informal agreements, including from renters and squatters. I'm not sure how you can equate loss of ownership with loss of temporary use.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#123
post #99
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am volunteering in an housing rights organization in France, and I am and have been tenant in a city with high price and housing shortage. There will always be many people taking "illegal deal" as sometime you have no other other solution, or other solution are even worse. And many many landlords are doing illegal things, including public housing. Tenant don't have the same bargaining power / freedom / agency than…

"My feeling is that your comment ignores this asymmetry." These are enforcement problems, not squatter problems. As you've said, the things the landlords are doing are already illegal. In the US we have Attorney General offices that will handle housing cases on behalf of tenants. Both parties can benefit from better enforcement and written and recorded leases. Penalties for landlords leasing without recorded agreemen…

This asymmetry makes enforcement easier when it profits the landlord, and make enforcement more difficult when it benefits the tenant... Your reflection seems based on the idea that there is a symmetry on the enforcement

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#124
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My feeling is that your comment ignores this asymmetry." These are enforcement problems, not squatter problems. As you've said, the things the landlords are doing are already illegal. In the US we have Attorney General offices that will handle housing cases on behalf of tenants. Both parties can benefit from better enforcement and written and recorded leases. Penalties for landlords leasing without recorded agreemen…

This asymmetry makes enforcement easier when it profits the landlord, and make enforcement more difficult when it benefits the tenant... Your reflection seems based on the idea that there is a symmetry on the enforcement

The enforcement is inconsistent or a drag on both sides already. I've seen both sides in the US. Enforcement benefiting the tenant is quite common.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#125
post #121
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's a public policy failure for land to sit vacant like that. > Then the government should buy the land. No, I don't think so. > You own a building and the building is not currently occupied. The building is unsightly but structurally sound. Does/should the government have the right to make you surrender that building without compensation (because that’s what forfeit means) simply due to it being unoccupied? Why?…

>> The legal principle has a long, long history across many different legal systems. Cite them.

Adverse possession

Usucapio

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#126
post #84

Squatters cannot break into your home and take residence. They can only enter if you leave a window or door open for them to enter. If they break-in that is a criminal offence and the police will treat it as a buglary and arrest those in the property. I used to squat here on Airstrip One in my twenties when I was homeless. We did not squat in homes where people lived, We squatted in empty properties. The utilities co…

>Squatters cannot break into your home and take residence.

>They can only enter if you leave a window or door open for them to enter.

This is not the effective defense of squatting that you think it is.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#127
post #125
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The legal principle has a long, long history across many different legal systems. Cite them.

Adverse possession Usucapio

In the US, adverse possession is a takings by a third party, not the government. And it’s not permitted when a land is unoccupied since one of the central tenets of adverse possession is open and notorious occupation. And, as you know based on your prior replies, adverse possession has a time component. The GP’s post is about merely leaving a property unoccupied. They don’t list a timeframe but we can pretty easily assume that if one exists in their mind it is less than the >5 years required for adverse possession based on the context.

I am not a commonwealth lawyer, but my understanding is that they have a similar modern rule in the UK and other commonwealth countries. I am not a continental lawyer, but my understanding is that civil law is similar with respect to government takings.

I will give you credit here because you may have interpreted the GP’s statement of “or forfeit the property” to mean generally lose possession of the property (including to a third party) rather than in the context of the prior sentence that references “the state allowing.” So, some backwards ancient legal principles that have been rejected or severely limited in modern times MIGHT support the contention that a third party can take someone’s land due to it being unoccupied and no modern legal principles support the contention that the government can make someone forfeit their land to the state merely for it being unoccupied.

The answer to my question (Does/should the government have the right to make you surrender that building without compensation (because that’s what forfeit means) simply due to it being unoccupied? Why?) is then “Maybe to someone that is occupying the unoccupied building (however that works) but not to the government.” Got it.

And it’s clear we both know that I have been talking about GOVERNMENT takings (“The government should tell property owners that they are required to keep their property occupied otherwise the government should seize their property?”).

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#128
post #120
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I suspect it would make more sense to do so via tax policy, i.e. high property taxes (or LVT) with a deduction for each occupant. Vacant land use taxes do make sense to me. That is not what GP advocated for: “Owners should be required to maintain their structures and keep them occupied, or forfeit the property.” Increased taxation is not forfeiture, and being forced to sell because taxes are prohibitive is differe…

> Increased taxation is not forfeiture, and being forced to sell because taxes are prohibitive is different from the government taking your building. That's a distinction without a difference, at least not a difference in the area we're talking about. Both mechanisms cause title to be lost if certain obligations are not met (in one case, an obligation to occupy, in the other, an obligation to pay taxes).

Well if we zoom out to the moon so that everything looks the same “in the area we are talking about” then I guess there are no distinctions between anything, are there? A person that gets robbed is the same as a person that forgets their wallet on a train, they both just failed to meet their obligations (in one case an obligation to not let someone have their wallet and in the other their obligation to remember where they put their wallet).

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#129
post #88
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's madness is the state allowing property owners to leave vacant, dilapidated buildings to blight the neighborhood. Owners should be required to maintain their structures and keep them occupied, or forfeit the property.

The government should tell property owners that they are required to keep their property occupied otherwise the government should seize their property? This is an extremist view. Who defines what “maintained” means? Beyond safety concerns about the structure (and even then, they shouldn’t be able to tell me anything as long as I post a danger unsafe structure keep out sign and lock the doors), why would the governmen…

> The government should tell property owners that they are required to keep their property occupied otherwise the government should seize their property?

No, but they have to keep it in good condition, which includes keeping it secure.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#130
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Spain (Valencia) and see lots of okupas around the city. In reality they occupy buildings that aren't being occupied. Property taxes are incredibly low here and many people who own empty buildings are fine with letting them sit, fall apart, and eat the property tax than do anything with them. These are the buildings that are prone to Okupas. I've never seen nor heard of it happening to actively used buildin…

What's madness is the state allowing property owners to leave vacant, dilapidated buildings to blight the neighborhood. Owners should be required to maintain their structures and keep them occupied, or forfeit the property.

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