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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#111

Post by alexpc201 »

reify wrote: post #84

Squatters cannot break into your home and take residence. They can only enter if you leave a window or door open for them to enter. If they break-in that is a criminal offence and the police will treat it as a buglary and arrest those in the property. I used to squat here on Airstrip One in my twenties when I was homeless. We did not squat in homes where people lived, We squatted in empty properties. The utilities co…

It is not what happened a few meters from my home in a completely closed apartment. The "squatters" broke the first-floor window to enter, the Mossos took 15 minutes to arrive and did absolutely nothing. They have been there for six months, they already changed the front door, and the owner cannot get them out.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#112

Post by alexpc201 »

prmoustache wrote: post #68
dheera wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if your house already had fart spray releasers in the first place because you "love the smell", and your thermostat was "broken" in the first place? When you live there you know how to "fix" them but otherwise you are not obligated to fix them.

You are living in pure fantasy. The squatters would simply fix the thermostats and disconnect the sprays. The buildings are occupied because the owner do not live there. Squatters target housings that are left empty by owners who are just speculating on the market.

No, in Barcelona, there are numerous examples of people who went on vacation, leaving their apartment completely closed, and it was occupied.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#113

Post by bramblerose »

giantg2 wrote: post #87
bramblerose wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what happens when the law requires a contract yet the landlord doesn't offer a contract and simply collects the rent?

It's an illegal operation. Under that sort of restriction, any building occupied would either need to be occupied by the registered owner or have a registered lease. If those aren't found, the people are evicted. The point is to ensure that everyone knows that you need to have a registered document to stay somewhere so nobody takes those deals. Then on the landlord side, you need to enforce substantial fines for any…

I appreciate your response. I feel the same as the other commenter: the asymmetry between "a steep fine" and "losing your home" is enormous. But "what happens if the fine is enormous" (say, the landlord also stands to lose their home) is an interesting thought experiment - how big does the punishment need to be to "fix" the power imbalance?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#114

Post by alexpc201 »

mijamo wrote: post #45
dgan wrote: post #18

Oh wow I thought only France has squatting problem. here the squatters can legally occupy your place for 48 hours, and if that's your only place and you went away on vacation tough luck buddy, they can shit on the floor and tear the walls down Good luck getting your money/property back

This is obviously not accurate. The 48h delay is not 48h after squatters entered the place, but 48h after you DISCOVERED them. And after those 48h you will still get your property back, just much more slowly because it is just not considered an emergency anymore if you discover a problem and don't signal it immediately. If you go on vacation for 3 weeks, discover squatters when you come back and can prove you are the…

It is not what happens in Barcelona. For six months the "okupas" have been inside an apartment that a family left completely closed to go away for a weekend, the Mossos arrived 15 minutes after the occupation, probably alerted by "Securitas" and did absolutely nothing. Saw everything from my window, and now I’m terrified if I have to leave my house for one day.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#115

Post by tivert »

abduhl wrote: post #109
tivert wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> What's madness is the state allowing property owners to leave vacant, dilapidated buildings to blight the neighborhood. Owners should be required to maintain their structures and keep them occupied, or forfeit the property. > The government should tell property owners that they are required to keep their property occupied otherwise the government should seize their property? This is an extremist view. It is not an…

>> It's a public policy failure for land to sit vacant like that. Then the government should buy the land. >> For a very clear example: if you're surrounded by starving people, and you own a warehouse full of food that you plan to let rot because you can't be bothered, the government absolutely does have the right to tell you what to do with that food. Let’s not use other examples and argumentation by analogy when we…

>> It's a public policy failure for land to sit vacant like that.

> Then the government should buy the land.

No, I don't think so.

> You own a building and the building is not currently occupied. The building is unsightly but structurally sound. Does/should the government have the right to make you surrender that building without compensation (because that’s what forfeit means) simply due to it being unoccupied? Why?

Yes. The legal principle has a long, long history across many different legal systems.

And I think you're thinking about it wrong: the government didn't "make you surrender that building," you chose to surrender it by leaving it unoccupied and unused to the point someone else could occupy and use it without a timely challenge.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#116

Post by alexpc201 »

diggan wrote: post #30
dgan wrote: post #18

Oh wow I thought only France has squatting problem. here the squatters can legally occupy your place for 48 hours, and if that's your only place and you went away on vacation tough luck buddy, they can shit on the floor and tear the walls down Good luck getting your money/property back

I'd see as both Spain and France has a housing crisis, the squatting is a symptom of that problem. Guess the difference is that in Spain if you detect them within 48 hours of them entering the property, you can "easily" and legally remove them with the help of the courts and police. But once you're beyond those 48 hours, things get a lot harder.

I don't know where you read about the existence of those magical "48 hours" to kick them out; that possibility doesn't exist in practice.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#118

Post by codetrotter »

golergka wrote: post #42
codetrotter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, if you buy property, make sure to close it and install a security system. If okupas appear, do the "legal fasttrack" and get them out within 48 hours and it won't be an issue. And also, if you’re gonna buy property please do so to actually live there yourself or to house a business that you own and actually operate. Don’t buy houses to rent them out. Don’t buy houses because you think that letting it sit…

You've listed all the ways to make sure no new houses are built. Update: > And also, if you’re gonna buy property please do so to actually live there yourself or to house a business that you own and actually operate. This means that I can't rent. But as a person who lives somewhere, or a person who operates a business, I'd rather rent than own — I don't want to have all the headache of owning the property, and I don'…

> Even if I had enough money to buy a house, I would put that money into a bank or investment fund that buys thousands of different homes and rents it out so I'm not that exposed to risks of owning any single piece of property.

Well, but imagine that houses cost a fraction of their current price. That’s the point. A home shouldn’t have to be this ginormous investment that you have to slave and save for many years to put down a small part of the total price for and be stuck paying back a mortgage to some bank for the rest of your working life.

Everyone should have the opportunity to own some kind of home, from early age and without going into debt for it.

And for the risk of the remaining low value of homes in that world, that can be covered with insurance.

And then you are still able to save up money and invest those remaining money into actually productive businesses, to diversify risk and earn a bit from your money and so on.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#119

Post by dheera »

prmoustache wrote: post #68
dheera wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if your house already had fart spray releasers in the first place because you "love the smell", and your thermostat was "broken" in the first place? When you live there you know how to "fix" them but otherwise you are not obligated to fix them.

You are living in pure fantasy. The squatters would simply fix the thermostats and disconnect the sprays. The buildings are occupied because the owner do not live there. Squatters target housings that are left empty by owners who are just speculating on the market.

They wouldn't know how to fix the thermostat if I design the thermostat with huge amounts of obscurity, to the point where the heater doesn't even turn on without a secret key being sent to it, the heater has obscure security screws, and if the screws are breached, fart spray in sugar syrup gets released followed by a huge gust of feathers coated in itching powder. Bitter melon juice would be sprayed into the occupant's mouth via a computer vision controlled system that uses a neural net to track the occupant's mouth. If they attempt to disconnect that system, a 2nd system instantly activates with jalapeno sauce. If the jalapeno sauce is disconnected, a 3rd system activates with habanero sauce.

The sprays could be made very difficult to disconnect. A new one would activate each day in a new location. If day 1 spray is disconnected, day 2 would be twice as much volume.

It has been shown on Youtube that fart spray does work for theft, it's time to deploy it as an actual product everywhere.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#120

Post by tivert »

abduhl wrote: post #107
asoneth wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tell property owners that they are required to keep their property occupied otherwise the government should seize their property? I suspect it would make more sense to do so via tax policy, i.e. high property taxes (or LVT) with a deduction for each occupant. > why would the government have any right to tell me what to do with my building? For one thing, governments have a vested interest in not being overthrown. I…

>> I suspect it would make more sense to do so via tax policy, i.e. high property taxes (or LVT) with a deduction for each occupant. Vacant land use taxes do make sense to me. That is not what GP advocated for: “Owners should be required to maintain their structures and keep them occupied, or forfeit the property.” Increased taxation is not forfeiture, and being forced to sell because taxes are prohibitive is differe…

> Increased taxation is not forfeiture, and being forced to sell because taxes are prohibitive is different from the government taking your building.

That's a distinction without a difference, at least not a difference in the area we're talking about. Both mechanisms cause title to be lost if certain obligations are not met (in one case, an obligation to occupy, in the other, an obligation to pay taxes).

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