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I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
241–250 of 625 posts
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the fact that there is a standardized test in my mind does the opposite and makes the process much fairer The problem isn't standardized tests, it's that leetcode questions are about having the time to have learnt the answer beforehand, rather than raw ability for problem solving.
That’s not true. In any discipline when confronted with a test there are two strategies: brute memorization of the question/answers, or developing the skills to tackle the problem dynamically. You cannot categorically claim that LC tests are largely memorization tests rather than raw problem-solving skills. That is just the approach you are capable of taking. Not being able to see up the mountain doesn’t imply there…
> You cannot categorically claim that LC tests are largely memorization tests rather than raw problem-solving skills
If that were the case then a normal, well accomplished software engineer shouldn't need to "grind" leetcode to pass an interview.
its just a cargo cult. Getting someone to do a code review is a much much better test of skill:
Do they ask questions?
are they kind in their assertions?
At what point do they go "I don't know"?
Do they concentrate on style or substance?
do they raise an issue with a lack of comments?
do they ask why the description of the PR is so vague?
When they get a push back, are they aggressive?
All of those are much better tests than "rewrite a thing that a library would do for you already"
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If your complaint is that a normal person wouldn’t have the time to study these things in detail, why would a company want to hire someone who has external obligations? External obligations like full time employment and a family?
Yes exactly. All things being equal, I’d rather higher someone who’s going to dedicate his entire life to the soul crushing work he will be assigned.
Wow, look guys I've found the fool.
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#244Leetcode style interviews probably serve two functions: 1) A way to suppress wages and job mobility for SWE. Who wants to switch jobs when it means studying for a month or two? Also, if you get unlucky and some try hard drops an atomic LC hard bomb on you now you have an entire company you can no longer apply to for a year. 2) A way to mask bias in the process while claiming that it’s a fair process because everyone…
This reads very similarly to consulting case interview questions. 1) It requires a lot of free time beforehand to study the frameworks so it filters intent but also removes those who need to work and 2) it seems objective on the surface but you can essentially pick winners by choosing difficulty and nudging along.
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
So are we just going with a base assumption that interviewers can NEVER be trusted with anti-bias training and learning how evaluate people fairly? The examples mentioned in this comment section are all blatantly intentional biases that people are choosing to use. The amazing part is that all the “standard test eliminates bias” people seem to the most ignorant to where bias helps THEM. Forcing people to study for two…
> Forcing people to study for two months is blatantly discriminatory to age and family status, at a systemic level. How is this any less discriminatory than any other assessment based interview where you need to prepare? Non-assessment based interviews end up being vibes based which is much more discriminatory.
You’ve set up a false dichotomy here; for any given position, there is typically a way to conduct an assessment-based interview that doesn’t require too much preparation for qualified candidates.
For example, at my current job, we hire web developers with Rails experience. Our technical interview process consists of either a pair programming session or an async/take-home task (candidate’s choice) which requires the candidate to implement a small feature in a Rails codebase. We do have some room to improve on objective evaluation of the candidate’s performance, but there is a test suite and a rubric which we use to evaluate their work. None of this should require that the candidate study, unless they’re coming in to the interview without Rails experience.
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#246Leetcode style interviews probably serve two functions: 1) A way to suppress wages and job mobility for SWE. Who wants to switch jobs when it means studying for a month or two? Also, if you get unlucky and some try hard drops an atomic LC hard bomb on you now you have an entire company you can no longer apply to for a year. 2) A way to mask bias in the process while claiming that it’s a fair process because everyone…
This is a good assessment. 1 and 2 are why the system won't change, but I don't think they were intentionally designed with that in mind. I think it's a hang over from academia, bearing in mind how many of the top engineers at FAANG are PhDs. Well, that and how almost nobody who successfully finds employment after "grinding" leetcodes wants to remove the barriers for entry. I think Leetcoders can't envisage a better…
> how many of the top engineers at FAANG are PhDs.
Not that many, but its interesting how many are from "elite" universities. I'm in a research org for a FAANG and we often get to see all the handwringing about how we can't recruit more of people type x.
Well, if you only hire from MIT, Stanford, Oxford etc, then they are all going to look the same.
For those outside the research org, its a bit better, but its still the most uneven place I've worked.
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe this is a common myth. I've spend around seven years teaching programming and people who can go from zero to decent problem solving in just six weeks are virtually non-existent. Either it wasn't a true "zero" but rather they were really good e.g. at advanced math or physics and managed to see some parallels, or it has to be a genius. I'd be very interested in hiring such a person.
Leet code is not "decent problem solving skills" but it's almost always about three types of programs: sliding window, linked list rearrangement, and BFS. The code to solve basically all of them look nearly identical after you classify it and the questions asked (what's the big O of this) are also all identical. It's an extremely narrow and teachable class of problems. There's outliers for sure but the 80th percentil…
Well the thing is, I keep hearing about these people who can't code but excel at leetcode, even that they are mass-trained in some bootcamps, but somehow I never saw one in reality and I interviewed hundreds of people. So I'm kind skeptical this is a real issue.
The other way round (people who code, but can't leetcode) I agree it's an issue. Unfortunately as noted here in comments, cost of a bad hire is much much worse than cost of a no-hire, so it's the price I'm willing to pay.
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#248Leetcode style interviews probably serve two functions: 1) A way to suppress wages and job mobility for SWE. Who wants to switch jobs when it means studying for a month or two? Also, if you get unlucky and some try hard drops an atomic LC hard bomb on you now you have an entire company you can no longer apply to for a year. 2) A way to mask bias in the process while claiming that it’s a fair process because everyone…
wait, can Lisa Khan at the FTC attack this too?
Nah, this will be an EEOC bogeyman.
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#249Leetcode style interviews probably serve two functions: 1) A way to suppress wages and job mobility for SWE. Who wants to switch jobs when it means studying for a month or two? Also, if you get unlucky and some try hard drops an atomic LC hard bomb on you now you have an entire company you can no longer apply to for a year. 2) A way to mask bias in the process while claiming that it’s a fair process because everyone…
I'm not sure there's so much agency in any of this. Most of it is probably cargo-culting. Every software shop wants to be Google, so they do what Google does (or what they think Google is doing). It doesn't matter if they do it well, or understand (or agree with) the ultimate purpose of the process.
If Google engineers all wore pink robes and top hats while interviewing then we'd see that everywhere.
Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews
#250Leetcode style interviews probably serve two functions: 1) A way to suppress wages and job mobility for SWE. Who wants to switch jobs when it means studying for a month or two? Also, if you get unlucky and some try hard drops an atomic LC hard bomb on you now you have an entire company you can no longer apply to for a year. 2) A way to mask bias in the process while claiming that it’s a fair process because everyone…
I think you’re overthinking it. Hanlon’s razor applies - the industry as a whole is incompetent at interviewing. And to be clear I’m not being smug here - every time I’ve ran recruitment rounds the interview process was a mess. It’s an extremely difficult equation to balance and as an industry we have never made the commitment to figure out a golden standard for how to do it.