Live data from Hacker News

A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

brianhama.com

171–180 of 228 posts

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#171
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish your comment was the only one, frankly, and we could really use a "you are not a lawyer, stop pretending to be one" guideline. Edit: I've made a "Ask PG" to ask for just that: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4055661

The idea that only lawyers can know anything about the law, and therefore nobody else can suggest avenues of investigation is shockingly elitist. Imagine what HN would be like if only state approved programmers were allowed to have an opinion on technical subjects. You're being down voted because you are lying about what I said and attacking me for the "crime" of trying to suggest areas of investigation for this guy.…

Yeah, this is like using Wikipedia as a starting point in researching an unfamiliar topic. It might be poorly written and do more harm than good but likely you'll get enough from it to pursue further.

"Don't trust stuff you read on forums", as PG said; use your head and maybe you'll find something worth pursuing.

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#172
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that only lawyers can know anything about the law, and therefore nobody else can suggest avenues of investigation is shockingly elitist. Imagine what HN would be like if only state approved programmers were allowed to have an opinion on technical subjects. You're being down voted because you are lying about what I said and attacking me for the "crime" of trying to suggest areas of investigation for this guy.…

> Imagine what HN would be like if only state approved programmers were allowed to have an opinion on technical subjects. Programming and law are two completely different fields, each with its own sets of requirements, regulations, practice, and repercussions. Please don't try to make them out to be the same.

It's called an "analogy". He didn't try to make them out to be the same. Personally, I feel it's an apt comparison and one that has occurred to me too many times.

The fact that each field has its "own set of requirements, regulations, practice, and repercussions" is obvious to everyone.

Perhaps a better way to respond to such an analogy is to explain how the similarities and differences make his analogy valid or invalid. That could be interesting and informative.

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#173
post #30

I never went to law school so there's no way I could be a lawyer, I'm just giving my thoughts on things I would do in this situation. This isn't legal advice. I sympathize with your situation and I'm sure there are a couple lessons learned here- namely that they used negotiation with email to apparently cause you to forget that there was court case pending. But saying that doesn't help you. I've been in the situation…

I appreciate what you're doing, but you just wrote an essay full of legal advice, including conclusions on how the proceedings will go -- something you really shouldn't predict. By putting the words "this isn't legal advice" before your comment, you aren't magically making it okay to give your opinion in the guise of advice. Just be aware of that.

[deleted]

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are intentionally being disingenuous, now, because you're upset. That's fairly transparent in your reply. Multiple people have told you that you are giving legal advice, and suggested that you stop, and pointed out how I am correct, and yet you're sticking to your guns that I'm a troll. I can't even begin to attack the amount of stupid in this comment, so I'm cutting my losses, adding your name and company mental…

>You are intentionally being disingenuous, now, because you're upset. I think curious is the appropriate word to describe my mental state. HN is populated by people who should be able to think fairly logically-- I would assume more logically than the general population. I understand why you made the false claim originally, and why you have chosen to characterize me in a derogatory fashion at every turn, including thi…

For those of you watching this unfold and wondering what "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" means, check this clip (from The West Wing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL_vHDjG5Wk/

(I would also like to say that this is in no way legal advice and should only be used as background material in research) I had to :)

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nearly every perspective I give is qualified with a "may" or a "it appears" or some other similar language. That's called weasel wording. > Nowhere did I give a single bit of legal advice. Uh, your entire comment is how to respond to this legal threat, which is legal advice. The only advice anyone on Hacker News should ever give to someone in legal trouble is "consult an attorney", not how to consult an attorney, r…

Nirvana, the issue is that you are providing a specific application of laws and rules to the OP's facts and suggesting a specific course of legal action. That is, by definition, the practice of law in every state in America. (Though perhaps not necessarily rising to the level of unauthorized practice, which could result in fines or other penalties.) If you wanted to be on the safe side, you would have said "Generally…

My understanding is that the "practice of law" is to essentially act as a lawyer. In the United States, every citizen is guaranteed the right to practice law in their own defense. "Practice of law" on someone else's behalf when you are not a lawyer may incur fines, as most jurisdictions try to protect their citizens from being represented by someone who has no idea what they're doing. The line between talking about someone's legal troubles and "practicing law" are somewhat fuzzy, however. Is it really that common for someone who has not represented themselves as an attorney to be held accountable for providing bad legal advice in a posting on a message board?

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#176
post #166
post #38

General advice for legal questions: it's fine to ask these sorts of questions, but please, for the love of god, don't listen to anyone who isn't a lawyer or who hasn't gone through something very similar to what you're going through. And, even in those cases, take their advice with a HUGE grain of salt. (If you disagree, please see below, where OP is variously advised to (1) commit unlicensed practice of law [serious…

I agree that it is smart to say "get a lawyer" in this situation. It does seem very hairy. But now something off topic... I noticed that these kind of answers ("get a lawyer") are used also to answer question even when people are just curious or they just want to learn something. It is nearly impossible to learn what needs to be read or investigated in order to evaluate the situation. For example, I don't need a lawy…

The problem really is that all three of those fields(law, taxes, and health) are highly personal. To get to the right answer in most non-trivial situations, a lot more personal information is required.

Because of that, while anecdotes are very helpful in making a person feel better about their situation, they might not be the right information that the person needs.

It's better to consult with experts who should be able to assist with the specific situation.

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#177
post #42
post #9

Somewhat unrelated, but I ask the legal experts here. If someone sues you for some bogus claim, is it possible to submit a written plain english rebuttal and have the court throw it out before it gets too serious? I mean if I sue some company for something absurd and demand $10 million dollars, are they forced to actually entertain my lawsuit or can it be dismissed readily without a lawyer?

The short answer is this: It's possible, but hard to pull off. First, you would have to do some basic research on court filing procedures. It's not rocket science, but you can't just pop an envelope in the mail addressed to the judge. Once you figure out how to file documents for the case, you need to determine what type of documents to file. E.g. a motion to dismiss might be appropriate if you think the claim is utt…

IANAL, but here are some other things that others involved in the system have related to me:

A lot of what the lawyers do is to prepare the case and documents in order to save work for the judge. If there's a amateur doing it, it can mean a lot more work for the judge and he may not be real thrilled about it.

Be prepared to explain why do you don't have a lawyer doing it. It's hard to know how well the answer "because I didn't want to pay lawyer's rates" is going to go over because the judge and all of his professional peers are lawyers.

In a smaller city it's quite possible that everyone in the room (including the opposing lawyer) will know each other well and lunch together on a regular basis. Except you.

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#178
I am a lawyer, and I have, in my own startup, contended with a company attempting to sue me/my startup for allegedly infringing on their trademark.

I'm sympathetic to your cause, but playing with intellectual property issues is serious stuff and the reality of the situation is that better-funded players will not infrequently attempt to bully you into getting what they want, as appears to have occurred here. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but you should have consulted an attorney immediately on receiving a cease-and-desist letter, even if you thought that their claim was entirely frivolous (which, given the facts presented here, is hard to say). Had this occurred, you almost certainly would either not be in this situation, or saved yourself a ton of trouble.

Given that you did not and this situation has evolved to what it is, your only choice is to retain an attorney if you’d like to continue operate the app and not pay whatever damages they alleged. And, frankly, you're in a poor position because, since the court has already entered a default judgment against you, you will have to show cause as to why the court should set aside this judgment, which will require more time and effort than if you have initially opposed the lawsuit, even if what you say regarding a piece of the document missing is true.

If you do retain an attorney and fight this, realize that, if you lose, the opposing side might be able to recoup the entirety of their attorney's fees (which would be very expensive for you, particularly in the unlikely event you went to trial or the like, and it appears that they have already alleged this right now), and, possibly, your profits (depending on a number of factors). That's very serious stuff.

I wish I could give more direct advice, and I strongly agree with commenters here in other posts lamenting how elitist law is and so on, but you have absolutely no alternative but to retain an attorney. I don't know where you live and where this litigation is taking place, but there are tons of lawyer referral services out there (your local county bar will have such a service, you can find out on their website), and you can speak to various attorneys who might understand your financial situation and be able to work with whatever budget you have. Just because an attorney says that they charged $X does not mean that you can’t find another, competent attorney, who might charge less. If I were in your position, and wanted to fight this, I would spend my time either finding/raising money, or talking to attorneys about how you can structure a fee schedule that would work with your finances (lawyers are open to negotiating: you can say "I can only pay you this or that" or "I can pay you this or that in the future"—see what they say and how flexible they will be). I am skeptical that someone would take your case pro bono.

As a general piece of advice based on personal experience to others: don't ignore intellectual property issues. Getting a trademark is not particularly expensive (and, unlike this situation, something that you can, actually, do without consulting an attorney, or at least for little $ should you need to consult an attorney) and can save you headaches in the future. If you receive a cease and desist-type letter, take it seriously, regardless of how frivolous you think their claim is. If whoever sent you the letter went to the trouble to have their lawyer draft a letter to you--which means that they probably paid the lawyer a non-insignificant fee to do that--they are certainly taking it seriously, and so should you. Even well-funded companies don't throw money away to, of all people, lawyers, unless they think they can get something they want from you, and/or they think they actually have a meritorious claim. Do not attempt to respond to the cease and desist letter, unless you have experience in how to do this. If you want to avoid paying an enormously onerous legal fee, you can try your hand at drafting a response—but absolutely get a lawyer to look at it prior to sending it. This may be more affordable than you think (~1-2 hour of work, or the like, for a lawyer). If you're worrying that you may be infringing someone else's trademark, or someone will try to sue you in the future (as apparently happened here), you can get a declaratory judgment (for a fee) from a court stating that you're not infringing-again, something to talk to a lawyer about.

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#179
post #78
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found a missing "possibly" and a spot where I clarified that something was my perception, but to be honest nearly every perspective I give is qualified with a "may" or a "it appears" or some other similar language. Nowhere did I give a single bit of legal advice. I merely illuminated a variety of ways that he could do some research that might show that he has more of a case than the lawyers he originally talked to…

I'm not scolding or anything. Just trying to be helpful, honestly. So in that spirit, here's an example (not the only one) of something from your post that would likely be deemed legal advice: "Basically, if you have been using your name prior to 2008, and can prove it, then you are in good shape. If you stared your site between 2008-2010, and they cannot prove that they started in 2008 as they claimed then you're pr…

From the definition you've linked to (emphasis mine):

"The following is an example of one state’s definition of legal advice:

"An _attorney-client relationship exists_ and one is deemed to be practicing law whenever 'one undertakes _for compensation_, direct or indirect, to advise another, not his regular employer, in any matter involving the application of legal principles to facts or purposes or desires.'"

I'm unclear at what point nirvana entered into a client-attorney relationship with the OP, and at what point he was compensated for his legal advice.

Re: A VC-funded startup called WhosHere is trying to steal my social network

#180
post #166
post #38

General advice for legal questions: it's fine to ask these sorts of questions, but please, for the love of god, don't listen to anyone who isn't a lawyer or who hasn't gone through something very similar to what you're going through. And, even in those cases, take their advice with a HUGE grain of salt. (If you disagree, please see below, where OP is variously advised to (1) commit unlicensed practice of law [serious…

I agree that it is smart to say "get a lawyer" in this situation. It does seem very hairy. But now something off topic... I noticed that these kind of answers ("get a lawyer") are used also to answer question even when people are just curious or they just want to learn something. It is nearly impossible to learn what needs to be read or investigated in order to evaluate the situation. For example, I don't need a lawy…

The issue with law is that laws are dissimilar from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, in meaningful enough ways that giving advice based on the laws for one jurisdiction might be entirely useless in another. Moreover, even I were to live in that jurisdiction, unless I am intimately familiar with the aspect of law questioned about (which is highly unlikely, even extremely experienced attorneys do legal research), I will have to spend time researching. If I spend time researching, I expect to be paid, generally because the tools used to research are not, themselves, free, like Westlaw or LexisNexis. Moreover, I generally get paid to research to begin with so, in not doing paid research for other clients, I am potentially losing money I might otherwise be making.

Not to say that lawyers can never give good legal advice to legal questions without researching--but the paradigm that I just described is a big reason why people, including lawyers, answer legal questions with "hire a lawyer."

Post reply on HN