How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
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Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#22TLDR; 4e22 photons per second 2.6e22 per bit. For comparison, ~2e26 photons will be received through your iris in your life
How many of them come from Voyager 1?
Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#23I love these kinds of questions. So what does that conclusion mean about when the probe will be so far away that we are below the Shannon limit? And can we beat the Shannon limit somehow, eg collect for longer, put the dish outside the atmosphere, and so on?
Not my field, but assuming transmitting hardware (including beam forming) is constant and that atmosphere can mostly be ignored (see comments about it usually being a non-impact in the transmission frequencies), two approaches would suggest: 1. Increase the effective receiving dish size, to capture more of the signal. Essentially, this would be effective in direct proportion to beam spread (the more beam spread, the…
I'm no physicist here so take this with a major grain of salt. I think the limit might ultimately arise from the uncertainty principle? Eventually the signal becomes so weak that measuring it, overwhelms the signal. This is why the receiver of space telescopes is cooled down with liquid helium. The thermally-generated background RF noise (black bodies radiate right down into the radio spectrum) would drown everything else out otherwise.
Along those lines, while I'm still not quite sure where the limit is, things become discrete at the micro level, and the smallest possible physical state change appears to be discrete in nature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle Enough work physically must occur to induce a state change of some kind at the receiver, or no communication can occur. (But this interpretation is disputed!)
Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#24TLDR; 4e22 photons per second 2.6e22 per bit. For comparison, ~2e26 photons will be received through your iris in your life
Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#25I love these kinds of questions. So what does that conclusion mean about when the probe will be so far away that we are below the Shannon limit? And can we beat the Shannon limit somehow, eg collect for longer, put the dish outside the atmosphere, and so on?
Not my field, but assuming transmitting hardware (including beam forming) is constant and that atmosphere can mostly be ignored (see comments about it usually being a non-impact in the transmission frequencies), two approaches would suggest: 1. Increase the effective receiving dish size, to capture more of the signal. Essentially, this would be effective in direct proportion to beam spread (the more beam spread, the…
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/voyager-mission-annive...
> The uplink carrier frequency of Voyager 1 is 2114.676697 MHz and 2113.312500 MHz for Voyager 2. The uplink carrier can be modulated with command and/or ranging data. Commands are 16-bps, Manchester-encoded, biphase-modulated onto a 512 HZ square wave subcarrier.
The "Manchester encoding" brings us to https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/manchest...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_code
Note that "16 bps" while the system runs at 160 bps. This suggests that the data is repeated ten times and xor'ed with a clock running at 10 HZ.
While there's no VOY set up now, https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html will occasionally show it. When that happens, you will likely see two set up for it. I've not seen them set up across multiple facilities - the facilities are 120° apart and only one has a spacecraft above the horizon for any given length of time.
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In the "sensitivity to photons" category, I'll also mention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment...
At the Moon's surface, the beam is about 6.5 kilometers (4.0 mi) wide[24][i] and scientists liken the task of aiming the beam to using a rifle to hit a moving dime 3 kilometers (1.9 mi) away. The reflected light is too weak to see with the human eye. Out of a pulse of 3×10^17 photons aimed at the reflector, only about 1–5 are received back on Earth, even under good conditions. They can be identified as originating from the laser because the laser is highly monochromatic.
While there's no signal there, we're still looking at very sensitive equipment.
Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#26Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not my field, but assuming transmitting hardware (including beam forming) is constant and that atmosphere can mostly be ignored (see comments about it usually being a non-impact in the transmission frequencies), two approaches would suggest: 1. Increase the effective receiving dish size, to capture more of the signal. Essentially, this would be effective in direct proportion to beam spread (the more beam spread, the…
There's another major factor. I suppose it falls under the encoding. Frequency stability. In a certain sense, having an extremely precise oscillator at both the receiver and the transmitter, is the same thing as just having a better more frequency-stable antenna, or less noise in the channel (because you know what the signal you're listening for should look like). I'm no physicist here so take this with a major grain…
There are practical signals we use every day that are "below the noise floor" before we decode them.
So while there is an ultimate limit of the maximum coding rate for a given signal-to-noise ratio, this is expressed in terms of a data rate (i.e. bits per second). If you're fine with lowering your data rate, there is no fundamental theoretical limit, as far as I understand.
Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#28I am confused. I thought photons were just visible light but I guess these little buggers are everywhere. Also very surprised voyager is using 2.3ghz, that's crazy saturated on earth due to wifi. How these engineers make this all work, is magic to me.
Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?
#29I am confused. I thought photons were just visible light but I guess these little buggers are everywhere. Also very surprised voyager is using 2.3ghz, that's crazy saturated on earth due to wifi. How these engineers make this all work, is magic to me.
If the frequency is high enough then the waves of light can be detected by things as small as cells in the back of your eye, or the pixels in a camera sensor. If it is too low then you need much larger detectors.
Other animals have detectors for different frequencies/wavelengths, allowing them to see either infra-red (mosquitos) or ultraviolet (bees, butterflies etc).
What we call "visible light" is just the particular range that our eyes can detect (about 400 to 800THz). If we were the size of a planet, and our eye cells were the size of a radio-telescope dish we would be able to "see" in those wavelengths. In fact, when we see images taken by radio telescopes, those have been essentially pitch-shifted up to something we can see, like the reverse of what we do when listening for bat clicks (where the pitch is downshifted to our hearing range).
The wikipedia article has a nice little diagram putting the wavelengths into perspective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum