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The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

nautil.us

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Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#21

Post by Earw0rm »

subjectsigma wrote: post #9
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

As logical as it is, I think advocacy of “degrowth” is a sure formula to put the far right in the driver’s seat and anyone who is seriously concerned about survival as forming another ingroup-outgrouo thing needs and answer to that.

“De-growth”, like communism, is perfectly logical until you start talking about implementation. Then it starts sounding like A Modest Proposal. Who has to sacrifice? Who isn’t allowed to build, or have kids, or use specific technology? I have this funny suspicion it would end up being poor people

And who ends up paying in a world that doesn't get its act together on sustainability? Hell, who's paying right now? Who's had their country invaded or their political system up-ended to keep cheap oil and cheap goods flowing to the West?

I'm not saying degrowthers have all the answers, but any critique should be weighed even-handedly against a realistic view of the shortcomings of what we have now and where it's taking us.

Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#22

Post by pillefitz »

subjectsigma wrote: post #9
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

As logical as it is, I think advocacy of “degrowth” is a sure formula to put the far right in the driver’s seat and anyone who is seriously concerned about survival as forming another ingroup-outgrouo thing needs and answer to that.

“De-growth”, like communism, is perfectly logical until you start talking about implementation. Then it starts sounding like A Modest Proposal. Who has to sacrifice? Who isn’t allowed to build, or have kids, or use specific technology? I have this funny suspicion it would end up being poor people

Unlike communism, it's not a centrally enforced ideology, but something that either happens in a controlled or unontrolled fashion.

Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#24

Post by n4ture »

subjectsigma wrote: post #9
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

As logical as it is, I think advocacy of “degrowth” is a sure formula to put the far right in the driver’s seat and anyone who is seriously concerned about survival as forming another ingroup-outgrouo thing needs and answer to that.

“De-growth”, like communism, is perfectly logical until you start talking about implementation. Then it starts sounding like A Modest Proposal. Who has to sacrifice? Who isn’t allowed to build, or have kids, or use specific technology? I have this funny suspicion it would end up being poor people

Who talked about sacrifice? De-growth is not about sacrifice, it's about changing the perspective on what is considered "good" and "desirable". I don't know why people are always so scared of de-growth, what you are describing with sacrifices is about decolonialism and global equalization. Ultimately if you are against such changes, you should champion neo-colonialism and make sure to promote racism so that you don't have to sacrifice anything and continue living at the expense of the poorer parts of the world...

Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#25

Post by subjectsigma »

pillefitz wrote: post #18
subjectsigma wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no objective proof “global society” will collapse by 2040 as the article claims.

There won't ever be, until it's too late. We're propped up by unsustainable tech, ocean temperatures are on the rise. So we ignore it and continue?

No, we talk about the evidence we do have and use that to convince people.

I’ve talked to a lot of climate deniers (unfortunately). These people may be saying and doing ignorant things but largely they are not stupid. They know when you make unfalsifiable claims, and that becomes part of their justification to ignore you.

Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#26

Post by Rhapso »

"degrowth" is one of those things you don't actually need to believe in, the world will do it for us if we don't do it first. I just want to minimize the collateral damage. If folks refuse, so be it, I did my ethical duty in making sure they were well informed.

Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#27

Post by bdangubic »

croes wrote: post #12
paulbaumgart wrote: post #8

To anyone feeling anxious about the future after reading this article: We have the technology to pause the worst effects of climate change indefinitely for a few billion dollars a year: https://news.uchicago.edu/radical-solution-address-climate-c... It’s far from a complete solution, but it works well enough that the future described in the article is much more a dark fantasy than a likely reality.

We had the technology to prevent climate change for a few billion dollar per year. Didn't happen.

as always, just follow the money… once effects of climate change become more expensive than solving the problem, the problem will be solved :)

Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#29

Post by paulbaumgart »

n4ture wrote: post #15
paulbaumgart wrote: post #8

To anyone feeling anxious about the future after reading this article: We have the technology to pause the worst effects of climate change indefinitely for a few billion dollars a year: https://news.uchicago.edu/radical-solution-address-climate-c... It’s far from a complete solution, but it works well enough that the future described in the article is much more a dark fantasy than a likely reality.

The "solution" you're showcasing only addresses global warming, not climate change, nor any of the other facets of the environmental crisis (e.g. biodiversity collapse, ocean acidification, soil depletion, fresh water pollution, etc...). Techno-solutionism at its finest!

I don’t think anyone is arguing that it is a viable alternative to eventual decarbonization of the economy. Or if people are, they aren’t doing so in good faith.

But it does very effectively prevent anything even approaching a “collapse.” Relatively cheaply, even.

Re: The Collapse Is Coming. Will Humanity Adapt?

#30

Post by subjectsigma »

n4ture wrote: post #24
subjectsigma wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“De-growth”, like communism, is perfectly logical until you start talking about implementation. Then it starts sounding like A Modest Proposal. Who has to sacrifice? Who isn’t allowed to build, or have kids, or use specific technology? I have this funny suspicion it would end up being poor people

Who talked about sacrifice? De-growth is not about sacrifice, it's about changing the perspective on what is considered "good" and "desirable". I don't know why people are always so scared of de-growth, what you are describing with sacrifices is about decolonialism and global equalization. Ultimately if you are against such changes, you should champion neo-colonialism and make sure to promote racism so that you don't…

When I think “de-growth”, one of the first things I think of is China’s One-Child Policy.

1. How does the OCP “stop” colonialism?

2. If what you mean by “changing the perspective on good and desirable” is restricting who can have children and who can’t, then obviously people are going to be upset with you?

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