IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default • Hacker News Board

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#31

Post by cooldeal » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 7:18 PM UTC

simonbrown wrote: post #23

recoiledsnake wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we don’t know what the user wants How about they ask their users on first install?

So everyone clicks "no" (or gets confused and asks a technical relative), Firefox always sends the DNT header, so no sites respect it.

>or gets confused and asks a technical relative

Isn't that a good thing for users to know about tracking? Firefox can always include some small popup help with the prompt explaining the DNT.

>so no sites respect it

But they will lose a big excuse(it's default) not to support it.

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#32

Post by jlarocco » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 7:23 PM UTC

ktsmith wrote: post #30

jlarocco wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there's really nothing Microsoft can do about that, is there? It seems silly for marketing firms to tell everybody, "Oh yeah, we're totally serious about privacy and we'll honor DNT," and then backtrack when lots of browsers start sending it. It's not Microsoft looking bad here.

Other than companies like Google most marketing companies couldn't give a shit about what you think of them as you aren't their customer. Additionally a lot of marketing companies would likely publicly get behind a DNT header when the recommendation is that browsers send "no preference set" by default. As soon as a browser vendor goes to default DNT the marketers support of the standard and honoring of it will go out…

It will be the marketing companies choosing to disregard the DNT headers and track everybody, not Microsoft.

Blaming it on Microsoft makes no sense.

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#33

Post by chc » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 7:26 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #27

lomegor wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say everybody cares about privacy you should back that up (unless you are using privacy in the general term and not for this specific example). I, for one, do not care about site tracking; in fact, I would gladly opt in to any such service if I see it fit. And I know a lot of people who also do not care about tracking.

Well, I guess we'll find out when people start complaining that the internet ads they see aren't as relevant as they used to be and Microsoft relents and turns DNT off.

Most people do not understand how all this works well enough to even know that they have something to complain about. They just want their Googles to work and show them interesting things. If the ads they see are less interesting, they aren't going to say, "Huh, I wonder if Microsoft started sending an HTTP header which falsely indicates that I prefer irrelevant ads." No, they'll just lump it in with all the other stuff that doesn't seem relevant to them and ignore it. Which of the parties involved in that situation wins? Not the browser implementor, not this particular user (who doesn't care), and not any of the advertisers who now have to waste money talking to people who are unlikely to be interested.

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#34

Post by chc » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 7:33 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #10

singingwolfboy wrote: post #6

This is a really bad idea. Most people don't change defaults -- the idea behind DNT is that the people who care about privacy can easily take steps to assure their own privacy. As long as businesses know that browsers sending the DNT header are sending it intentionally , there's a chance that websites will respect it. With this change, DNT becomes meaningless. How can businesses determine which users are OK with bein…

I had the exact opposite feeling. First, everybody cares about privacy. Just because businesses have taken advantage of users being clueless, doesn't mean those clueless people don't care about privacy. Second, your "nobody knows about it" argument can cut the other way. How can a business track people when most people don't know/care that they can opt out of being tracked? Nobody wants to mention it, but the truth i…

> First, everybody cares about privacy.

This is true, but it's also a very broad statement that does not entail that many people care about the Do Not Track header. Everybody has a different level of privacy that they care about. Most people care if you watch them in their bedrooms or bathrooms. Some people care if you know how much money they have. A smaller number of people care if you see their bare skin and thus wear burqas when they go out in public. An even smaller number of people care if ad networks compile a profile of things that are interesting to them.

The problem is that "Do Not Track" is supposed to indicate intent. If the browser vendor indicates intent in one direction when the user hasn't indicated intent in either direction, advertisers can no longer trust what the browser tells them. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#35

Post by raldi » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 7:36 PM UTC

limejuice wrote: post #26

If IE10 installer asked you this question: Do you want websites to track you? () Yes () No I think most people would say No. So, defaulting to No seems like the correct thing to do. I don't know if that would really hurt Google or Facebook because if you have a google account, you are opted-in to have google or facebook track you. It might hurt 'lurker' ad networks which track you without you even having any account…

And if waiters asked restaurant patrons if they wanted dihydrogen monoxide used in the cooking of their food, most people would say no. That doesn't mean we should stop cooking with water.

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#36

Post by Animus7 » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 7:40 PM UTC

kevinpet wrote: post #22

The header isn't called "tracking permission", it's "Do Not Track", an explicit negative. Genius move on MS part though. By making DNT too detrimental for advertisers to implement, they ensure no one will implement it, which means they will also be able to ignore it.

Indeed. I seriously think this is a sly attempt at crippling DNT and boosting ad revenues (also, remember: Microsoft owns a significant stake in Facebook, whose "Like" beacons would be adversely affected by legislation regulating DNT).

As a bonus, they get to look like a modern, privacy-conscious, I've-got-your-back company while they're at it. From a business perspective, it's really smart.

Disclaimer: Used to work for Microsoft, though nothing web-related.

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#37

Post by ktsmith » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 7:55 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #32

ktsmith wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than companies like Google most marketing companies couldn't give a shit about what you think of them as you aren't their customer. Additionally a lot of marketing companies would likely publicly get behind a DNT header when the recommendation is that browsers send "no preference set" by default. As soon as a browser vendor goes to default DNT the marketers support of the standard and honoring of it will go out…

It will be the marketing companies choosing to disregard the DNT headers and track everybody, not Microsoft. Blaming it on Microsoft makes no sense.

Microsofts actions will have consequences, pointing out the consequences of their actions makes perfect sense.

Re: IE10 to send "Do Not Track" DNT header by default

#38

Post by UnFleshedOne » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 9:59 PM UTC

singingwolfboy wrote: post #6

This is a really bad idea. Most people don't change defaults -- the idea behind DNT is that the people who care about privacy can easily take steps to assure their own privacy. As long as businesses know that browsers sending the DNT header are sending it intentionally , there's a chance that websites will respect it. With this change, DNT becomes meaningless. How can businesses determine which users are OK with bein…

"How can businesses determine which users are OK with being tracked, and which are not?"

Easy: we need a new header: RDNT, Really Do Not Track. This would be off by default and power users can turn it on indicating an explicit intention.