They should have read about the Internet Worm of 1988 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm
Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it?
US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
201–210 of 321 posts
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#202It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources. Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployme…
How much more do you think you can reasonably expect for an ongoing covert national security program? If the article is wrong, it would be a massive screw up. Huge. Historical. The kind of thing that would prompt a strong rebuke from the named countries and individuals. In fact it's a remarkably well sourced article given the context and a cynical person might speculate on the timing of this revelation in regards to…
You act as if its something that the countries would want to rebuke. Seems like good PR and an orchestrated leak to me.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#203"[Obama] repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons—even under the most careful and limited circumstances—could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks. “We discussed the irony, more than once,” one of his aides said." "Irony" is the wrong word. It's "hypocrisy".
Not when you honestly believe in American Exceptionalism
Countries or terrorist groups rarely justify military action (even if it's cyberwarfare). At best, they explain it.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#204It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources. Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployme…
When the New York Times prints: “Should we shut this thing down?” Mr. Obama asked, according to members of the president’s national security team who were in the room. It is generally safe to assume, whether you admire the NYT (like me) or don't (like 'patio11), that there's an actual source with a credible claim to have been in the room with the President who did in fact tell David E. Sanger that this happened. Peop…
Eh, perhaps. Either way, I think Dale puts my feelings into words better than I would have, http://www.digitalbond.com/2012/06/01/ny-times-historical-fi....
Misreporting or being given a specific leak that the administration would like to see published? Lots of incentives for the powers that be to pseudo-claim credit for this in a nudge-nudge-wink-wink sort of way.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think it's as simple as "Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism." Every powerful country uses violence to advance it's political goals. Every powerful country kills the civilians/citizens of other countries, publicly expressing varying amounts of regret.
The parallel comment by salimmadjd has a point about Pakistan maybe being even worse than Iran, when it comes to terror support (I do doubt that Saudi A as a country is worse). I might stand corrected, there. >>Every powerful country kills the civilians/citizens of other countries To explicitly target civilians is serious because it breaks the laws of war, etc. Democracies generally don't do that.
You are leaving out a rather glaring example. Neither atomic bomb, dropped by the one and only country ever to use them, were dropped on military targets.
The "Democracies" of the world kill many innocent civilians, an order of magnitude in fact than any terrorist related event if you really want to compare the two. Not because the people running them are cartoonishly evil or anything, it simply reflects the massive imbalance of military power between us and whoever the terrorist are supposed to be. It's cloaked in talk of noble intentions and euphemistically referred to as collateral damage. I doubt it makes a difference to the populations affected whether they were an intentional target, or the gps on the smart bomb that just leveled your house glitched out.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War. Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Consider that democracies in general seems to go crazy when they have active terrorism problems and throw out human rights and the law book. E.g. Germany, USA, Israel, Great Britain, Italy, Spain, etc. (The only…
>> Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Maybe you want to update your knowledge and find out what is the worst country. You will surprised to see the so calle "best" democracies there. http://blog.amnestyusa.org/us/shocking-facts-about-whos-armi...
That link shows what countries are exporting weapons to other countries. This isn't the same as "supporting terrorism," as the parent clearly states. Iran directly supports groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#207"[Obama] repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons—even under the most careful and limited circumstances—could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks. “We discussed the irony, more than once,” one of his aides said." "Irony" is the wrong word. It's "hypocrisy".
At one point special warfare was also considered taboo, now it is the U.S.'s bread and butter. Unfortunately while our nation recognized the need to develop our black ops capabilities early on, we are a bit late to the party when it comes to cyber-warfare.
When it comes to international conflict, right and wrong are often subjective. Of course someone who is hostile towards the west is going to feel justified about his actions. If he didn't feel justified, he wouldn't maintain those beliefs. Unfortunately for him, feeling justified doesn't make you correct. While many countries dislike some of the United States' actions (often rightfully), almost the entire world hates everything about violent extremists.
If the President thinks that a cyber-attack will prevent a war, (that would be far more costly to both sides than the ones we are already in) it would be immoral for him not to take action. I don't like many of the things that Obama does, (or any politician) but he strikes me as a person who really does want to do the right thing and prevent the needless loss of life.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#208It's a new cold war. Eventually Iran will write viruses in return to attack US power grid. All fun and games until Homeland Security Theater is given new powers to raid your home and shoot your dog if they think your computer is being used as part of a botnet.
The problem is not when a country does that - it's when a loosely organized bunch of normal-looking lunatics all over the world does it.
Moore's Law of Mad Science.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
Terrorist victims in 2001: 3,000 ... Cancer deaths in 2001: 550,000 I don't think it's fair to the families of the victims, to the people of NYC, or any peaceful, healthy person who has that threat in the back of their mind when minding their own business in public, to equate a cancer death with a death caused by a crumbling skyscraper, a burning skyscraper, or jumping out of a burning, crumbling skyscraper. I know c…
Neither is any less dead than the other. The cause matters only to the living. My entire point is that fear of the threat in the back of your mind is entirely irrational. You're much more likely to die of cancer, and even then, you're not very likely to die at all. The Stalin quote about "a single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" comes to mind here. I understand your point that terrorism is the result of…
The former has a large political impact.
How many dissidents a year do you think you need to kill to suppress any opposition?
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#210"[Obama] repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons—even under the most careful and limited circumstances—could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks. “We discussed the irony, more than once,” one of his aides said." "Irony" is the wrong word. It's "hypocrisy".
I don't think irony and hypocrisy need to enter into it; really there is just a concern of escalation, or even a sort of "arms race" (although it would differ from a real arms race in many key respects).