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US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

arstechnica.com

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Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#161

Post by corin_ »

gaius wrote: post #97
cynoclast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

So here's the thing with news: it's expensive to run a news operation, and almost impossible to make any money doing it, since there is so much competition. All serious news operations get their funding elsewhere. The BBC is funded by the UK taxpayer (and thus behaves like a branch of the civil service). Reuters is funded by its financial services wing (the point of it is to provide news to traders, who will then tra…

Slight correction: The BBC is not funded by taxpayers, but TV license payers, that is to say by people who chose to watch TV. While I won't argue that the BBC doesn't have biases, they aren't as simple as "like a branch of the civil service".

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#162

Post by gavinlynch »

dpeck wrote: post #155

It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources. Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployme…

The sources aren't named, but it would be a pretty major, major slip-up to specifically claim to site NSA advisers if it were made up out of whole cloth. As in, career ending for the writer. For example, "...according to members of the president’s national security team who were in the room." Journalists don't drop phrases like that lightly, and you don't have access to several NSA members and high-ranking US officials unless this leak is 100% sponsored by the Administration. It clearly was: one can tell by the quantity and range of officials that were interviewed who demonstrate, at points, first-hand knowledge of the situation.

Now, the question of whether these NSA advisers are -lying- as part of a propaganda campaign is a fair question. I wouldn't be shocked if they were, but everything that I have anecdotally read about Stuxnet and just using common sense, tells me--a layman on the outside looking in--that there is a pretty decent probability this is true, or at least pretty close to the truth.

Clearly, the timing of this is politically relevant. The President wants to take credit for it to boost his domestic stock in the runup to the election.

He can repeat these two key points whenever he is questioned on foreign policy:

1) I killed Bin Laden 2) I'm the guy who set the maniacal Ahmadinejad's nuclear ambitions back. The guy who is preventing the destruction of Israel.

Regardless of your political persuasion, these are potent points that have a chance to resonate with the electorate.

(fwiw: I'm not particularly in love with the NYTimes. I don't have an affinity for any particular newspaper anymore. I'm not defending the newspaper, just pointing out the likely reality as I understand it)

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#163

Post by roc »

andylei wrote: post #92
cynoclast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

>> Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran. you know, its possible that the US, Israel, AND Iran are all doing bad things. just because Iran is not being condemned by a some media organizations does not mean it has any meaningful high ground. why are you skeptical that iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons? if they weren't, why would they be developing secret enrichment facilities? why would "The IAEA B…

> "why are you skeptical that iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons?"

Because the only people saying they are doing so are the same people who've been claiming Iran was six to eighteen months away from having a nuclear weapon since the 1980s.

And everyone whose job it is to collect and analyze intelligence on the matter says they aren't.

And I find it pretty hard to believe the US and Israel can simultaneously have sufficient capability to craft and deliver something like StuxNet to affect actual damage to the Iranian nuclear program (to say nothing of the targeted assassinations) yet somehow insufficient capability to make the best estimate on whether or not there's a weapons program.

How could the people who know which homes/cafes/shops frequented by which scientists, working in which labs, running which operating systems, using which software to drive which hardware have a worse intelligence picture than chronic war agitators and political mouthpieces with a track record of being willfully deceived by charlatans and war profiteers?

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#164

Post by [deleted] »

bluedanieru wrote: post #65
hieronymusN wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't nearly as terrifying as the Cold War with the USSR. We're not threatened with nuclear war, nor having the near misses that could trigger it (Cuban missile crisis). No one is building bomb shelters in their backyards, because right now the balance of power is very much in the United States' favor. Could things get there with another nuclear enabled power like China? Maybe, in time. Iran is not an existentia…

The war itself isn't nearly as terrifying, but somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War.

[deleted]

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#165

Post by tptacek »

dpeck wrote: post #155

It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources. Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployme…

When the New York Times prints:

“Should we shut this thing down?” Mr. Obama asked, according to members of the president’s national security team who were in the room.

It is generally safe to assume, whether you admire the NYT (like me) or don't (like 'patio11), that there's an actual source with a credible claim to have been in the room with the President who did in fact tell David E. Sanger that this happened. People have accused the NYT of bending the truth in lots of ways, but misreporting a White House meeting is not one of those ways.

I'm annoyed to have to write this, because I'm one of the people who thought the Stuxnet thing was marvelously overhyped and unlikely to be true. Friends of mine who are much smarter than me thought the worm might have just been a cover for direct sabotage. Nope; it seems like the government was exactly as simultaneously savvy and idiotic as online pundits had claimed it was.

Depressing.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#166

Post by webXL »

kbolino wrote: post #142
jerf wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The physical terrorism threat is negligible. The generalized cheap-attack-with-disproportionate-damage threat I can't in good conscience write off quite so readily. Biological attacks are still scarily possible, and if we start talking computer viruses it becomes scarier again. Recall Stuxnet didn't merely inconvenience people, it destroyed hardware. If someone manages to write a virus that, say, destroys a significa…

Terrorist victims in 2001: 3,000 Murder victims in 2001: 15,000 Car collision fatalities in 2001: 42,000 Cancer deaths in 2001: 550,000 The only thing that's disproportionate is how we react to terrorism. (statistics are for United States)

Terrorist victims in 2001: 3,000 ... Cancer deaths in 2001: 550,000

I don't think it's fair to the families of the victims, to the people of NYC, or any peaceful, healthy person who has that threat in the back of their mind when minding their own business in public, to equate a cancer death with a death caused by a crumbling skyscraper, a burning skyscraper, or jumping out of a burning, crumbling skyscraper. I know cancer can be just as ruthless and indiscriminate, but it never has struck in such a concentrated, evil manner.

The only thing that's disproportionate is how we react to terrorism.

Are you implying that we shouldn't react disproportionately?

That's not to say I agree with the current level of disproportionateness or that we shouldn't be spending billions of public dollars combatting a disease that's claiming more and more people because they are now living long enough to acquire it.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#167

Post by duaneb »

tsotha wrote: post #154
eli wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story is indeed confirmed, but the NYTimes write-up is definitely better. Ars does not add much and what they do add is speculation.

So... someone involved is going on the record? Someone who can do interviews on, you know, Fresh Air and say "I was involved in this project"? The fact that the NYT thinks it's true doesn't mean much, particularly since they've been punked so many times.

With politicians involved, this kind of article (i.e. a reputable leak) is more dependable.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#168

Post by pivo »

salimmadjd wrote: post #128
andylei wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran. you know, its possible that the US, Israel, AND Iran are all doing bad things. just because Iran is not being condemned by a some media organizations does not mean it has any meaningful high ground. why are you skeptical that iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons? if they weren't, why would they be developing secret enrichment facilities? why would "The IAEA B…

>> why would "The IAEA Board of Governors passed a resolution[186] by a vote of 32–2 Because of pressure from Israeli lobby. I follow this very carefully, and most of it is propaganda to provide impunity to Israel for current and future actions. The fact is, Iranian still unable to refine oil in industrial scale without outside help. Enriching U like any thing else becomes harder as you reach higher purity. US intell…

Just curious, isn't refining oil on an industrial scale easier than enriching uranium? Any idea why they are unable to do it?

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#169

Post by gavinlynch »

guelo wrote: post #156
gcb wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military power is a requirement for international politics. Do you think counties summit to laws because of what? If no one can over power then, they have to abide to no law. UNis just to cut costs for the dominating military powers. Want something done? It costs less to send some talker to tell about the power you can mobilize than to mobilize that power at once.

That's a very cynical point of view that was the cause of much death before the creation of the UN. There used to be this ideal about what the UN meant including respect for international laws. How can we credibly complain that Iran is violating a UN resolution at this point? If we're moving back to a might-makes-right world we are doomed to a future of new world wars and untold carnage.

"If we're moving back to a might-makes-right world we are doomed to a future of new world wars and untold carnage."

In my view, we never left a "might-makes-right world". It's the underlying reality of human existence and human nature. And yes, that absolutely does mean that our future holds new world wars and untold carnage. Is it a particularly happy thought? No, not really. But it's part of the human experience.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#170

Post by strags »

"[Obama] repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons—even under the most careful and limited circumstances—could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks. “We discussed the irony, more than once,” one of his aides said."

"Irony" is the wrong word. It's "hypocrisy".

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