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US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

arstechnica.com

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Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#101

Post by dantheman »

philiphodgen wrote: post #82

The fact that the NYT published this piece is interesting. Assume all details are true. Why did the dog bark rather than choose to be silent? And the sources. Assume all of this is true? Why feed the info to the NYT? When coupled with recent revelations that Mr. Obama personally approves every killing of militants (for certain strained definitions of that term), the upcoming election springs to mind as a motivation.…

This is the standard practice of the Obama administration - prosecute only those who leaks don't help the president. Glenn Greenwald at salon.com has been writing about this a lot, here's his piece about stuxnet: http://www.salon.com/2012/06/01/tough_guy_leaking/singleton/

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#102

Post by Morg »

dpark wrote: post #75
Morg wrote: post #26

HIV (just to be clear, I have no clue wether HIV was assisted by some military programmes, but I can safely say such "mistakes" have been made in the past by the same army, like when they used to test nukes for example) Luckily this time it's a simple pc virus we can easily disassemble and counter - I think cyber war's still miles better than the alternatives.

No, you can't "safely" say that. You've no evidence that the US military has ever been involved in creating a wide-scale biological pandemic. This is just conspiracy theory bunk. I'm not sure how you can reasonably compare testing nuclear weapons to the supposed propagation of HIV, either. These two things have nothing in common.

Alright, you want details ? During the testing of nuclear weapons, the US had no problem testing the secondary effects of nukes through radiation far beyond the blast zone, by putting boats with soldiers to watch the thing.

It was widely known at that time that radiation was bad for you mkay, and that nuclear fission bombs were nuclear fission bombs, i.e. accelerated nuclear degradation bombs and drained all their explosive power from radiations, that kill mkay.

In the past, biological, chemical, explosive weapons were tested on rocks, plants, prisoners, personnel, unsuspecting local populations, etc. by the nazi regime, the US govt, the USSR and France - that are widely confirmed.

I wouldn't put it past THOSE people to do such a thing, would you ?

So really, if you want to say it's IMPOSSIBLE or UNLIKELY that they would've done that too, without knowing the consequences - I suppose you must be right.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#104

Post by ruttingchimpanz »

philiphodgen wrote: post #82

The fact that the NYT published this piece is interesting. Assume all details are true. Why did the dog bark rather than choose to be silent? And the sources. Assume all of this is true? Why feed the info to the NYT? When coupled with recent revelations that Mr. Obama personally approves every killing of militants (for certain strained definitions of that term), the upcoming election springs to mind as a motivation.…

Former election strategist here. This is part of the Obama-Is-Tough roll-out, clearly done with current admin participation. Timed release to follow the "kill list" story and maybe even pre-empt the terrible jobs report.

All the same, it's pretty stunning that the Obama administration would trade its (public) plausible deniability on Stuxnet in order to "look tough" on America's enemies. Playing fast and loose with foreign policy...great plan, guys.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#105

Post by cjdavis »

davidw wrote: post #67
ck2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like the TSA it's our government that is far more terrifying than any imaginary threat they are supposedly protecting us against. And don't underestimate the Iranian government, they are not a third-world country like some people imagine out of ignorance - I really feel sorry for the Iranian people getting caught up in this mess.

> imaginary threat Err... while I'm not stepping in to defend the TSA, I think that to call the threat imaginary ignores recent history.

While the threat of terrorism is not imaginary, it is certainly negligible compared to other threats.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#106

Post by jerf »

cjdavis wrote: post #105
davidw wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> imaginary threat Err... while I'm not stepping in to defend the TSA, I think that to call the threat imaginary ignores recent history.

While the threat of terrorism is not imaginary, it is certainly negligible compared to other threats.

The physical terrorism threat is negligible. The generalized cheap-attack-with-disproportionate-damage threat I can't in good conscience write off quite so readily. Biological attacks are still scarily possible, and if we start talking computer viruses it becomes scarier again. Recall Stuxnet didn't merely inconvenience people, it destroyed hardware. If someone manages to write a virus that, say, destroys a significant number of power plant turbines, we're talking about a disaster that does in fact start killing people in addition to general inconvenience. Electricity really really is one of the lifebloods of civilization, and while the phrase lifeblood is obvious not literal it's more literal than it may appear on first glance. Cut it off and real people will really be hurt and killed.

Personally I'd rate this class of threat comfortably above asteroid impact or solar flare-type disaster.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#107

Post by davidw »

cjdavis wrote: post #105
davidw wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> imaginary threat Err... while I'm not stepping in to defend the TSA, I think that to call the threat imaginary ignores recent history.

While the threat of terrorism is not imaginary, it is certainly negligible compared to other threats.

Yeah, that's certainly something you can argue in good faith.

I just disliked the "imaginary", which clearly is not true.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#108

Post by rodolphoarruda »

ck2 wrote: post #28

It's a new cold war. Eventually Iran will write viruses in return to attack US power grid. All fun and games until Homeland Security Theater is given new powers to raid your home and shoot your dog if they think your computer is being used as part of a botnet.

I wouldn't say Iran has the means (a.k.a knowledge) to go ahead and deploy the whole thing: virus development, infiltration, infection of devices within the power grid, and coming out unnoticed.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#109

Post by mistercow »

davidw wrote: post #67
ck2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like the TSA it's our government that is far more terrifying than any imaginary threat they are supposedly protecting us against. And don't underestimate the Iranian government, they are not a third-world country like some people imagine out of ignorance - I really feel sorry for the Iranian people getting caught up in this mess.

> imaginary threat Err... while I'm not stepping in to defend the TSA, I think that to call the threat imaginary ignores recent history.

It is an imaginary large threat based on a real small threat. Wolves that attack Puerto Rican goat herds in the night are real, but the mythological chupacabra based on them is still imaginary.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#110

Post by Monotoko »

hieronymusN wrote: post #41
ck2 wrote: post #28

It's a new cold war. Eventually Iran will write viruses in return to attack US power grid. All fun and games until Homeland Security Theater is given new powers to raid your home and shoot your dog if they think your computer is being used as part of a botnet.

This isn't nearly as terrifying as the Cold War with the USSR. We're not threatened with nuclear war, nor having the near misses that could trigger it (Cuban missile crisis). No one is building bomb shelters in their backyards, because right now the balance of power is very much in the United States' favor. Could things get there with another nuclear enabled power like China? Maybe, in time. Iran is not an existentia…

As more of the world goes digital and becomes accessible on the public internet, more damage can be done. Attacking power grids, wall street, phone networks etc could very easily cause chaos, whilst it isn't as terrifying as blowing a country to pieces, it's certainly up there.
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