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What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

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Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#231

Post by Scoundreller »

charles_f wrote: post #140
resolutebat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR of the court cases: the fisherman was guilty of damages to the tune of $1.2M, and his insurance cover was voided because his act was so reckless. Funnily enough, the cable owners (Telus) tried to thread the needle of making the owner liable, but not so badly that insurance wouldn't pay for it. The judge didn't buy this, and obviously a sole operator crab boat can't pay over a million in damages (although he did…

Makes you wonder if those cables should (can) be insured against such problems instead of relying on a craber's insurance.

$1.2m is a drop in the bucket for Telus.

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#232

Post by red-iron-pine »

mgoetzke wrote: post #163
bjornasm wrote: post #144

Just in case why people are wondering why cutting of internet for an arctic island is a big deal. What many might not know is that Svalbard is home to the northernmost satellite station in the world. It is just one of two stations that can communicate with polar orbiting satellites each day. ESA and NASA as well as other civilian organisations are present there, and the station communicates with well over a hundred s…

Time for a Starlink backup then

definitely not. volumes just aren't there and Elon Musk is openly in bed with dubious characters.

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#233

Post by red-iron-pine »

sandworm101 wrote: post #205
ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking backup vs. primary. Of course the backup is not going to be as good.

>> We're talking backup vs. primary. Of course the backup is not going to be as good. Then it isn't really a backup. A lower-bandwidth failover capacity is properly described as an alternative or degraded pathway. To be a proper "backup" a thing has to actually do the primary job at least temporarily.

aye. Starlink could be, best case, an Out of Band (OOB) management interface.

good for getting into the other side of a connection or doing some management tasks like back-up telemetry -- but we're talking SNMP, SSH connections to routers, etc, not GigE levels of data.

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#234

Post by red-iron-pine »

vidarh wrote: post #184
LysPJ wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not over a cable. Submarine cables are clearly marked on nautical charts, and even recreational boaters know not to anchor in those areas. A professional trawler captain is not going to accidentally trawl over such an area.

There's a big difference in seriousness between being able to show whether they were likely doing something they shouldn't be doing for the sake of making more money on the fishing, vs. if they were doing what they were doing with the intent of causing damage, though. But of course, that difficulty is also exactly why it'd also be a great way for an adversary to damage your cables.

means motive opportunity -- 3 for 3

given the use cases re: satellites on the island, and the continuing cold-yet-increasing tensions with Russia, it's absolutely reasonable to make that assumption

maybe they'll try to blame this on Ukraine like they tried with the undersea pipelines that got blown up, too

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#235

Post by vidarh »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #234
vidarh wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference in seriousness between being able to show whether they were likely doing something they shouldn't be doing for the sake of making more money on the fishing, vs. if they were doing what they were doing with the intent of causing damage, though. But of course, that difficulty is also exactly why it'd also be a great way for an adversary to damage your cables.

means motive opportunity -- 3 for 3 given the use cases re: satellites on the island, and the continuing cold-yet-increasing tensions with Russia, it's absolutely reasonable to make that assumption maybe they'll try to blame this on Ukraine like they tried with the undersea pipelines that got blown up, too

It's reasonable to assume. But it's wildly insufficient for either a prosecution or diplomatic consequences, especially given that all 3 also would apply to a trawler just intent on profiting from trawling.

I agree the odds are reasonably high Russia arranged this on purpose. And that's fine for the purposes of a discussion that doesn't have consequences, but not for much more.

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#236

Post by lazide »

littlestymaar wrote: post #227
lazide wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I can say is you clearly don’t understand what moral hazard is, because my example is a textbook (literally) example of it. [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral%20hazard][h... If the owner won’t lose out on the payout from insurance by committing arson, or could plausibly get away with it without getting caught, he is experiencing a moral hazard to commit arson. It’s only insurance fraud if he lies…

> All I can say is you clearly don’t understand what moral hazard is, because my example is a textbook (literally) example of it. [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral%20hazard][h ... This random example is interestingly at odds with all the other definitions and example on that very web page! > If the owner won’t lose out on the payout from insurance by committing arson, or could plausibly get away with…

[flagged]

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#237

Post by littlestymaar »

lazide wrote: post #236
littlestymaar wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All I can say is you clearly don’t understand what moral hazard is, because my example is a textbook (literally) example of it. [ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral%20hazard][h ... This random example is interestingly at odds with all the other definitions and example on that very web page! > If the owner won’t lose out on the payout from insurance by committing arson, or could plausibly get away with…

[flagged]

OK Mr super smart.

Btw, you are the one missing the subtlety of “burning down your own good” vs “having it burned by a third party”. But sure, I'm the one who don't understand.

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#238

Post by bimguy »

bjornasm wrote: post #145
bimguy wrote: post #113

Ah excellent, fishermen not only destroying the ocean but also the infrastructure of countries. When will peoples appetite for destroying the ocean be qualled?

There might be things that point towards this not being totally by accident.

Despite people downvoting me I did read the article. I don't assume this is all fisherman since that Chinese boat mentioned seems to be conveniently taking out cables and the Chinese gov is not responding to their investigation requests. Still doesn't change the fact that fishing operations destroy the ocean floors, a simple amount of research can confirm this.

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#239

Post by YZF »

Retric wrote: post #175
YZF wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of people that understand the details of how a refrigerator works is orders of magnitude higher than the number of people the really understand everything about cellphone technology. But yeah, the hum is not pleasant, has that been studied? ;) I feel like for something to stick there does need to be more than that. But who knows, give it a try and see! If you look at the common conspiracies they seem to ta…

> understand the details… really understand everything That’s two different standards, and only relevant if either of them was a significant percentage of total population. Most people don’t even understand why a refrigerator door gets briefly stuck after you close it. It’s practically a magic box that gets cold which is perhaps why they fall for conspiracy theories so readily, any explanation is equally plausible. A…

One way to convince yourself that a fridge is simpler than a 5G cell system is to look at the science history behind them. The heap pump, the core concept behind a fridge, goes back to 1748 (Cullen). Radio goes back to Maxwell (circa. 1864) and Hertz (1886). Basically at the time that Radio was invented/discovered refrigeration along the lines of the modern fridge was well understood. The first cellphone was invented in 1973 and the first commercial cell phone was 1983. Lots of technologies in the latest generations that are pretty cutting edge and today's phone and technologies look like science fiction to someone from the 1970's or even 1980's...

Re: What the damaged Svalbard cable looked like

#240

Post by toast0 »

charles_f wrote: post #140
resolutebat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR of the court cases: the fisherman was guilty of damages to the tune of $1.2M, and his insurance cover was voided because his act was so reckless. Funnily enough, the cable owners (Telus) tried to thread the needle of making the owner liable, but not so badly that insurance wouldn't pay for it. The judge didn't buy this, and obviously a sole operator crab boat can't pay over a million in damages (although he did…

Makes you wonder if those cables should (can) be insured against such problems instead of relying on a craber's insurance.

In most cases, when insurance covers a loss, they also subrogate the loss and pursue damages from the responsible party, if feasible...

It's reasonable for the responsible party to pay the damages. And yet, it's a risk, which is why it's common to carry insurance for your own liability (in which case, your insurance usually wouldn't subrogate and sue you)

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