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Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

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581–590 of 604 posts

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sorry for the inconsistency there. I didn't consider that personal anecdotes and hearsay are technically evidence as evidence is literally anything that supports a conclusion. It is however, a good indicator for how little I value those two forms of evidence however. My point with "today's age of misinformation" is not really that there is more misinformation these days. That may be true, but it could also just…

Any evidence here would be unsound if you try to apply natural science’s requirements to it. Scientific method is about making observable predictions; i.e., it ultimately hinges on the experience of the observer and existence of observer’s mind. When you try to apply it to the theory of mind itself, you short-circuit that logic. There is pretty much no useful (falsifiable or provable) claim or conclusion to be made,…

In many scenarios, the observer is a machine or tool, not a human mind. And of course there's that whole aspect of replication along with that "scientific method" thing. If science was simply the act of humans making observable predictions and telling them to others, then there would be no difference between "science" and "personal anecdote".

I also don't understand why the mind is relevant. We are trying to prove something that exists outside the mind right? However, even if this phenomena was something that only humans could observe, it would still be testable with science. Science makes observations about human behavior all the time.

Ok, all that said, almost none of this is relevant because my proof standards are not as rigorous as scientific standards. I just want to see some videos of the beings, I'm not asking someone to perform a study here.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#582
post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you perceive as a "huge leap" is not so much the promotion of consciousness as fundamental, but rather the demotion of matter from that same stance. The former is simply a byproduct of the latter. That in the process it seems to interlock so well with findings in various fields of study should admittedly be considered for now as just a happy accident. But we've abided by the law of parsimony to orient our inquir…

We should start with the question I posed, as this is the crux of the issue here, and without it, everything else here is moot. I will endeavor to set it out as clearly as I can. As you put great weight on the 'hard problem' being an insurmountable one for (and only for) materialism, I am sure you are well aware of the seminal importance, for that premise, of what has become known as the 'Knowledge Argument' from Fra…

I think that I (finally) understand your question (maybe). Are you asking why the hard problem would apply to materialism, but not to idealism?

If that's indeed the question, the simplest answer is that if reality is fundamentally material, then by extension everything must be material, including consciousness. For reasons already stated (the mind-body problem, the hard problem, etc), the emergence of experiential consciousness as we know it from inert matter is opaque. We don't have a shred of evidence to support it, nor the sliver of a clue to go on.

Conversely, if reality is taken to be fundamentally consciousness, then everything is consciousness. Everything becomes a "figment". There's nothing actually "physical". This is conceivable in theory. One obvious example are our dreams where a reality is projected and interacted with by consciousness. This position isn't subject to the hard problem since everything in reality is all just one thing, consciousness.

Panpsychism and other dualisms just postpone the problems of materialism. But they resurface later, in addition to the new problem that this position requires to be granted at least two fundamental magic tricks to explain the rest.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#583
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> medicine Sciences that directly concern human flourishing (medicine, psychology, sociology, economy) are either largely stuck in the middle ages (we can barely make things work reliably, and when they occasionally do we are not quite sure why), or in fact invoke materialism-inconsistent ideas to various degrees (e.g., stress being recognised as a cause or contributing factor of numerous diseases). > Belief in ideal…

Why is stress contributing to diseases materialism-inconsistent? In all cases it has a physical mechanism through which the disease is caused. > Idealism, materialism, dualism, etc. concern theory of mind Idealism/dualism used to be about other things too. Stepping away from them allowed us to find physics. Now it is concerned with theory of mind only because the other things are explained by physics. > believed in A…

You seem to insist on painting dualism/idealism/… as a contender to physics. This is a category error that can only be explained by implicitly treating physics as religion. It is not uncommon—many of us are from a generation that is freshly atheist after generations of religious adherence, so once you encounter physics it is tempting to use it as an outlet for all that bottled up religiosity—but is wrong. Physics is orthogonal to materialism and idealism. The core of any natural science (including physics)—empirical observation—implies the existence of the observer as ground truth, but that’s as far as it goes; beyond that is philosophy (or, indeed, religion).

> In all cases it has a physical mechanism through which the disease is caused

If the aforementioned stress is the root cause of the physical consequences, then that is materialism-inconsistent.

> Idealism/dualism used to be about other things too.

?

> Stepping away from them allowed us to find physics.

This is incorrect. The fact that many (or most) natural scientists that outlined and progressed physics as we know it today, Faraday, Newton, Mendel, Euler, Maxwell, all the way back to Aristotle, were some form of dualist (mostly Christian) is well-documented.

> I was talking about the actually measurable things he was saying about physics

Such as?

> since we still do not have any experiment proving that soul exists

There is no experiment that can prove that materialism, idealism or dualism are correct. Those questions are not in scope of natural sciences for that exact reason ;)

> Science is concerned with the question "whether there exists a Turing machine, output of which is indistinguishable from behavior of a human"

That is not natural science, that is philosophy and theory of mind. See behaviourist or illusionist theories of consciousness—there are scientists who believe in them, too. Have you heard of the Chinese room thought experiment or the concept of philosophical zombies?

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any evidence here would be unsound if you try to apply natural science’s requirements to it. Scientific method is about making observable predictions; i.e., it ultimately hinges on the experience of the observer and existence of observer’s mind. When you try to apply it to the theory of mind itself, you short-circuit that logic. There is pretty much no useful (falsifiable or provable) claim or conclusion to be made,…

In many scenarios, the observer is a machine or tool, not a human mind. And of course there's that whole aspect of replication along with that "scientific method" thing. If science was simply the act of humans making observable predictions and telling them to others, then there would be no difference between "science" and "personal anecdote". I also don't understand why the mind is relevant. We are trying to prove so…

> In many scenarios, the observer is a machine or tool, not a human mind.

An unconscious, non-experiencing mechanism is not an observer in the way the term “empirical”[0] is meant—to observe is to experience.

> I also don't understand why the mind is relevant.

See above.

(I do not think I really understood the rest of your comment.)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#585
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should start with the question I posed, as this is the crux of the issue here, and without it, everything else here is moot. I will endeavor to set it out as clearly as I can. As you put great weight on the 'hard problem' being an insurmountable one for (and only for) materialism, I am sure you are well aware of the seminal importance, for that premise, of what has become known as the 'Knowledge Argument' from Fra…

> I say they pump the intuition because it is not actually an established fact that the premise is correct, but to be clear, I think it is, at least for human consciousness. I don't see what's being pumped . As we know from the incompleteness theorem, some truths cannot be proven. The fact of our awareness is another that's often doubted by the same people that doubt the divide separating qualia and conceptual knowin…

You say you are concerned with the challenge of pulling our cultural head out of [what you perceive as] the sand of implausibility - well, in that case, I'm the sort of person whose concerns you should be addressing: I don't think the hard problem (if there is one in the form it is conceived of by its proponents) is any harder for materialism than it is for any of the alternatives, but I am willing to give all due consideration to arguments that it is (and by "due consideration", I mean outside of internet discussion threads, even though my wife has banned me playing audio books and podcasts on the topic over the speakers when we are in a car together.)

Unfortunately, your responses in this thread are not making the sort of arguments that are called for by your stated goal. Here, your response continues the theme of reasserting how obvious it seems to you that there is a hard problem which rules out materialism. This is not an argument, it is a belief. You are, of course, entitled to your beliefs, and I am sure you hold them strongly and sincerely, but the fact that you do does not establish that our cultural head is stuck in the sands of implausibility. Repetition does not make them more argument-like, nor does calling them "self-evident", nor insinuating that you see more clearly than others, nor wrapping them in language that might be appropriate for something that has an obvious proof. It is not enough, for an argument, to state propositions that other people who already agree with you will also agree with; that's just preaching to the choir.

For the same reason, your complaint that no counter-arguments are being made falls short: counter-arguments are made to arguments, not unargued opinions.

At this point, I suspect you may be thinking that a commitment to materialism is also a belief - and I would agree! The simple fact is that no -ism has delivered an explanation of consciousness, and when someone tries to tell me it is a fact that that consciousness is just a computation (or a non-computable physical process, Searle and Penrose), I point out that no-one has explained it in those terms.

Nevertheless, there is a counter-argument here, and it is in my previous post, where I argue that the knowledge argument - which is widely regarded as the strongest argument for there being a hard problem that only affects materialism - is exactly as problematic, for any other putative explanation of consciousness, as it is for materialism (which does not rule out it being an illusory problem for any of them.) I may not have been completely clear about what it is and why it matters here, so I will make another attempt.

The 'hard problem' is the claim that phenomenal consciousness and its associated qualia present an insurmountable challenge to materialism. Many people feel - sometimes strongly - that this is obviously so, but philosophers and scientists alike (and on both sides of the fence) rightly expect more justification for accepting this claim than these feelings of incredulity towards materialism.

From your own account here, the hard problem is a necessary prerequisite for idealism: it is, as you said, a linchpin, and it is so in this sense: all the other claims you have made about idealism rest on there being a hard problem to take materialism out of consideration.

Furthermore, for idealism to prevail over materialism, the hard problem must only exist for materialism (or, at least, not present a challenge to idealism), or else idealism would be saddled with exactly the same problem as materialism - a problem that you insist is insurmountable.

So, putting the previous three paragraphs together, the proponents of idealism need a justification for there being a hard problem that applies only to materialism and not to idealism.

In the years of reading papers and other scholarly articles on the issue, I have been struck by how often such justifications ultimately rest on some form of the knowledge argument (at least in this sense, Goff is entirely justified in calling it "the greatest argument against materialism.") To recap, this is the argument which boils down to "you can't learn what it is like to see colors from any physics book."

Does this satisfy idealism's need for justification for the premise that there's a hard problem for materialism that does not apply to idealism itself? It does not, as we can simply substitute 'idealism book' for 'physics book', and the knowledge argument itself gives us no reason to think that the outcome will be any different. In fact, in your first response to this issue, you affirmed that knowing all of a completed idealist philosophy would do no better, in this regard, than knowing all of completed physics.

Furthermore - and this is important - we can see that the knowledge argument is equally applicable to any field of what Torin Alter calls 'discursively learnable' knowledge without making any assumptions about the truth of materialism.

Therefore, in the account of and justification for idealism in what you have written so far, there is at least one piece (the linchpin, no less) missing: an acceptable justification for thinking that there is a hard problem that does not present an equal problem for idealism. You entered this thread in a very assertive manner (your first sentence was " Perhaps for some it's indeed a matter of 'feelings'. But for others it's a conviction built from reasoning that leads to self-validating and irreducible truths", and in your latest post, you adopted the mantle of someone who is pulling our collective heads from the sands of implausibility), but your responses have not, so far, lived up to this rhetoric.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#586
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is stress contributing to diseases materialism-inconsistent? In all cases it has a physical mechanism through which the disease is caused. > Idealism, materialism, dualism, etc. concern theory of mind Idealism/dualism used to be about other things too. Stepping away from them allowed us to find physics. Now it is concerned with theory of mind only because the other things are explained by physics. > believed in A…

You seem to insist on painting dualism/idealism/… as a contender to physics. This is a category error that can only be explained by implicitly treating physics as religion. It is not uncommon—many of us are from a generation that is freshly atheist after generations of religious adherence, so once you encounter physics it is tempting to use it as an outlet for all that bottled up religiosity—but is wrong. Physics is…

> If the aforementioned stress is the root cause of the physical consequences, then that is materialism-inconsistent.

E.g. stress increases production of certain hormones, raises blood pressure etc., which over time can be harmful. How is this materialism-inconsistent?

> Have you heard of the Chinese room thought experiment or the concept of philosophical zombies?

Yes, i don't find them particularly convincing. Chinese room is merely a misunderstanding on the part of Searle, because no one argues that computer carrying out the arithmetic operations does the thinking. The program running on the computer does the thinking, and it does not matter what mechanism is used to implement the computation [1]. And philosophical zombies is just a circular argument. Indeed, in the same way i can argue that there exists a combination of letters, (namely "satki") after reading which the conscious part of any human dies and he becomes a philosophical zombie, completely indistinguishable from his former self, and yet not a person.

> That is not natural science, that is philosophy and theory of mind.

Creating software that does things similar to what mind does, is now not simply a science but already a field of engineering, so i don't understand what do you mean.

In general i don't have problem with religions claiming things orthogonal to physics, but your interpretation of idealism is directly in conflict with it. If we manage to simulate brain with high enough accuracy and it does not produce a behavior similar to human behavior, that will be a proof that you are right and computationalism is wrong. But if we manage to do it, you can still say that computation is secondary, and results we get are because a soul gets attracted to a specific type of computation every time it is carried out, (which will be truly orthogonal to physics), or you can still use the philosophical zombie argument, but it is not different from "satki-zombie" argument above.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_theory_of_mind

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#587
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I say they pump the intuition because it is not actually an established fact that the premise is correct, but to be clear, I think it is, at least for human consciousness. I don't see what's being pumped . As we know from the incompleteness theorem, some truths cannot be proven. The fact of our awareness is another that's often doubted by the same people that doubt the divide separating qualia and conceptual knowin…

You say you are concerned with the challenge of pulling our cultural head out of [what you perceive as] the sand of implausibility - well, in that case, I'm the sort of person whose concerns you should be addressing: I don't think the hard problem (if there is one in the form it is conceived of by its proponents) is any harder for materialism than it is for any of the alternatives, but I am willing to give all due co…

> "you can't learn what it is like to see colors from any physics book."

Why is it an argument against materialism?

To know what it is like to see colors you need to put your brain in a state in which other people's brain gets when they see colors. Physics book simply does not do that by itself.

But if you use learned physics, to electrically stimulate the right neurons in your brain, you can learn what it is like to see colors without ever seeing colors or having eyes.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. False. It can help you understand what it is. "Apples are red" is only useful if you already know the color red? But if you know apples then you've just learned something about colors!

That's all very well (up to the point where I have a green apple in front of me!), but if someone tells me something to the effect that consciousness is identical with soul, all I have learned is something about their personal take on lexicography. If they go on to say, for example, that the soul is immortal, I have not learned that consciousness is immortal; I have learned something about the speaker's beliefs.

No, you have learned that consciousness has something to do with immortality.

Examine that for a minute, you'll see it's obviously true.

Our genes are an organic mechanism seeking immortality of consciousness through instincts, some of which can be awe-inspiringly complex, like spider webs. We praise language and culture for its ability to retain information across time (approaching immortality).

That you're dismissing this as some kind of lexicographical or subjective belief thing reveals how intensely your mind seeks to dismiss it. The truth is purifying fire that burns away parasitical spirits doing their damnest to convince you otherwise.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any evidence here would be unsound if you try to apply natural science’s requirements to it. Scientific method is about making observable predictions; i.e., it ultimately hinges on the experience of the observer and existence of observer’s mind. When you try to apply it to the theory of mind itself, you short-circuit that logic. There is pretty much no useful (falsifiable or provable) claim or conclusion to be made,…

In many scenarios, the observer is a machine or tool, not a human mind. And of course there's that whole aspect of replication along with that "scientific method" thing. If science was simply the act of humans making observable predictions and telling them to others, then there would be no difference between "science" and "personal anecdote". I also don't understand why the mind is relevant. We are trying to prove so…

> that whole aspect of replication along with that "scientific method" thing

So uh, religion has been replicated quite a lot. We have historical records of it. We've seen an unprecedented revolution from religion, including science. And we've seen our pinnacle of civilization beginning to collapse since most people abandoned God. How much more proof/evidence/anecdata you need? We still track time in years since Jesus was born. That was 2024 years ago.

> even if this phenomena was something that only humans could observe, it would still be testable with science.

This is a belief. The belief that there exists nothing in the universe that cannot be tested by science. But science is filled with untestable things. Mind-numbingly humongous leaps of pure speculation about something that makes no sense and cannot be measured. Like dark matter, spacetime singularities, or "the big bang".

Science can't even measure consciousness! Or do you take IQ tests as gospel?

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#590
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say you are concerned with the challenge of pulling our cultural head out of [what you perceive as] the sand of implausibility - well, in that case, I'm the sort of person whose concerns you should be addressing: I don't think the hard problem (if there is one in the form it is conceived of by its proponents) is any harder for materialism than it is for any of the alternatives, but I am willing to give all due co…

> "you can't learn what it is like to see colors from any physics book." Why is it an argument against materialism? To know what it is like to see colors you need to put your brain in a state in which other people's brain gets when they see colors. Physics book simply does not do that by itself. But if you use learned physics, to electrically stimulate the right neurons in your brain, you can learn what it is like to…

Even in normal experience the brain is being stimulated. So theoretically, you wouldn't need eyes to experience color. You would only need to replicate the physical properties at the onset of brain activity. Those are called neural correlates of consciousness. However, there's the byproduct as the result of that activity, the experience associated with it. If reality is fundamentally material, there are two possible implications: (1) the very experience itself is physical. That is, the inherent experiences of smelling, or tasting, or seeing a color, in themselves have to be physical. The challenge with this is that we don't know the nature of that physical property and we have no evidence for it (besides counting consciousness itself as evidence, which is begging the question). (2) There's also the view that, rather than the correlates causing the experience, they are the experience. The challenge here becomes to demonstrate which correlate maps to exactly which experience (and not another). Neither of (1) or (2) have been successfully demonstrated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_conscious...

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