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Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

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Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#161

Post by [deleted] »

rmccue wrote: post #156
hajile wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ARMv9.0 is very similar to ARMv8.5 (9.0 supersets 8.5 with SVE2, TME, TLA, and CCA), so it's not a massive deal. SME implies v8.7 which is basically identical to v9.2 except for those couple extensions previously mentioned. I wonder if there is licensing at play though. Apple may have gotten a really great licensing deal on ARMv8 that they wouldn't be offered for ARMv9.

From what I’ve read previously, Apple has a special licensing deal already as they were part of founding Arm, although I don’t know if there’s any details on exactly how that works.

[deleted]

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#162

Post by threeseed »

alwillis wrote: post #122
capl wrote: post #2

Hmm, I was thinking of buying an M3 Pro 16” this summer, but maybe I should wait then

For those with MacBook Pro FOMO, do not read about the rumored foldable 18.8-inch screen MacBook Pro running on the M5 coming in 2026 [1]. [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/05/23/18-8-inch-foldable-macb...

macOS does not support touch input.

It would require the biggest UI redesign in the history of the company to ensure every input control is at least a centimetre away from anything else.

And would require every Mac developer to absorb the cost for major updates to their apps as well.

This would almost certainly be an iPad.

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#163

Post by [deleted] »

gtirloni wrote: post #12
yardie wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still on a i7 MBP because everytime I think I'm ready to update the next one is announced.

Besides maybe battery life (which is a huge win), anything you'd benefit from the M's? I only had a 2008 macbook so I'm curious.

[deleted]

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#164

Post by ziml77 »

tonyarkles wrote: post #142
ben7799 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows binaries often seem to have excess statically linked libraries.. even though they are called DLLs which is supposed to mean dynamic. They might be loading it dynamically but they still seem to have decided to include their own private copy. I've even seen windows binaries have multiple different versions of the same DLL inside them, and it's a well known DLL that is duplicated multiple places elsewhere. All O…

From having worked on Windows, OSX, and Linux desktop software over the years there's a few factors at play off the top of my head: - Windows DLLs don't usually have strong versioning baked into the filename. On OSX or Linux, there's usually the full version number baked in (libfoo.so.3.32.0) with symlinks stripping off version components. (libfoo.so, libfoo.so.3, libfoo.so.3.32) would all be symlinks to libfoo.so.3.…

On Windows isn't it possible to have the OS deal with the DLL version issue by using side-by-side assemblies? I believe in practice that's only ever used by DLLs provided by the OS, but I thought it was possible to apply the mechanism to other DLLs as well.

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#165

Post by rbanffy »

fl0ki wrote: post #104
meindnoch wrote: post #7

So binary sizes are going to double?

This is more like supporting AVX512 than a whole separate architecture. If you have to target both old and new devices from one binary, you do a runtime feature check and call the corresponding code. That is certainly more code, but not double. You only need it for the parts of the code that are both (a) bottlenecks worth optimizing and (b) actually benefit by using the new instructions.

And, in modern desktop software, code is a tiny bit of the total size of the application - visual elements tend to occupy a lot more space than code.

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#166

Post by javawizard »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #160
awill wrote: post #157

What's so shocking about this? The Arm Cortex X2 which launched 2 years ago has ARMv9

Why do you assume anything is supposed to be shocking about this?

I'm guessing GP meant something more like:

What's so newsworthy about this?

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#167

Post by rbanffy »

deergomoo wrote: post #119
capl wrote: post #2

Hmm, I was thinking of buying an M3 Pro 16” this summer, but maybe I should wait then

Since the move to Apple Silicon you are realistically never more than 12-18 months away from a new chip generation in a MacBook. An M1 is still plenty good for the vast majority of workloads, especially if it's an M1 Pro/Max/Ultra. Actually probably the best thing to do is wait until the M4 machines launch then bag a good deal on a clearance M3.

The next ones to get M4 will probably be the Mini, the Studio, and the Pro. iMac and MacBooks got an M3 refresh, but the other desktops have M2s now.

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#168

Post by dumbo-octopus »

rbanffy wrote: post #165
fl0ki wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more like supporting AVX512 than a whole separate architecture. If you have to target both old and new devices from one binary, you do a runtime feature check and call the corresponding code. That is certainly more code, but not double. You only need it for the parts of the code that are both (a) bottlenecks worth optimizing and (b) actually benefit by using the new instructions.

And, in modern desktop software, code is a tiny bit of the total size of the application - visual elements tend to occupy a lot more space than code.

In games, perhaps. In basically nothing else though. And I have 0 games on my M1, yet my apps folder is 23 GB. Docker, Edge, and SketchUp all 2+ GB, despite not having almost any UI to speak of.

(Edit to remove iMovie from the list, as it has GB's of "Transitions" and "Titles" that I really should just delete)

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#169

Post by rbanffy »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #106
sitkack wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

On the contrary, I think that the reliable update cadence in modern electronics means that people should generally all but ignore future product roadmaps. When you actually need to get a new device, just get whatever the up-to-date thing is. OK, ok, I suppose that it's reasonable to check the rumor sites to see if you should delay by a month or two. But not any longer than that.

It's much harder with PCs, where you can get, for instance, new Thinkpad's with anything from 11th gen Core i all the way to new Core Ultras. And, now, ARMs as well...

Re: Apple's M4 has reportedly adopted the ARMv9 architecture

#170

Post by 201984 »

hajile wrote: post #127
meindnoch wrote: post #7

So binary sizes are going to double?

ARMv9 is just ARMv8.5 with 4 extra extensions. It's not a complete overhaul like the ARMv7 to ARMv8 change was. It's more comparable to x86 chips with AVX-512 and chips without AVX-512. 99% of your code is the same, but the compiler will generate SSE, AVX, and AVX-512 variants and choose the correct one based on the CPU.

Are there any extensions that ARMv9 is required to have? I'm looking through the reference manuals and those 4 extra extensions are all marked as "OPTIONAL" for ARMv9.
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