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Shipbreaking

edwardburtynsky.com

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Re: Shipbreaking

#151

Post by vasco »

almostgotcaught wrote: post #145
vasco wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using "strange" instead of "bad" to me indicates someone has enough maturity to recognize that human nature is part of nature, which is gnarly and creates bad things like humans setting up incentives without having to necessarily classify humans or the universe as bad. Is it bad when a lion kills another animal? In a way yes, it's extra death that could be preventable, in another way it's what it is. Is it strange or…

> has enough maturity to recognize that human nature is part of nature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

I literally didnt define it as good. Maybe read again. I said it isnt good or bad, its nature, its what it is. Ironic that while explaining why using "bad" to qualify nature is not appropriate you think im saying its good.

Re: Shipbreaking

#152

Post by logtempo »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #32
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #2

These are probably taken at the Alang (India) and Chittagong (Bangladesh) Ship Breaking Yards, where they run the ships aground at high tide. Both visible on Google Maps satelite view: https://www.google.com/maps/place/21%C2%B023'21.9%22N+72%C2%... https://www.google.com/maps/place/22%C2%B027'24.5%22N+91%C2%...

I'm not in a position to look right now, but I'm pretty sure there's video of this happening out on YouTube. It's pretty fearsome seeing these big vessels coming in under power and crashing into the shore. Tons of inertia.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5kDbwE7mFck

I'm sure you mean this one. There are probably others though.

Re: Shipbreaking

#153

Post by aredox »

guidoism wrote: post #124
aredox wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trajectory of the last French air carriers - the Foch and the Clémenceau - is a good illustration of the mess it can be, even for former military flagships. Those military ships are of course full of asbestos - more than usual - and heavy metals. The Clémenceau was supposed to be dismantled in Spain, but when the marine nationale saw it being towed to Turkey, they cancelled the contract and got it back. Then anot…

I wonder how different each of the wikipedias are between languages. There's barely any info about the dismantling of the Clémenceau in the English wikipedia. I occasionally read the Spanish language wikipedia for South American history as it is more complete. As a someone fluent in both languages I feel like I have access to more knowledge. How much knowledge is "hidden" in other languages on Wikipedia? Would be coo…

It is already the case. I've seen several French Wikipedia articles with a banner warning the content was merely lifted from the English article.

Re: Shipbreaking

#154

Post by eru »

teachrdan wrote: post #131
paxys wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Paying well" is relative. There are lots of industries that are rightly considered exploitative from the western eye, but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving or relying on meager government handouts if they went away.

This is plainly true. But there is a middle ground between "the least amount of money workers will accept before choosing to starve instead" and "so much money it's no longer economical to pay workers to do." I have no idea what the case was in this specific industry in India. But in many developing countries, first world companies collaborate with government and pay off private muscle to make it impossible for worke…

> This is plainly true. But there is a middle ground between "the least amount of money workers will accept before choosing to starve instead" and "so much money it's no longer economical to pay workers to do."

That's what labour market competition between employers (or employment opportunities, because people can strike out on their own) is for.

More and stiffer competition is better.

> (I do not mean to imply that you deny this possibility. But there are many on HN who uncritically believe that if workers take a job, it is therefore a fair wage taken voluntarily.)

I don't know what definition of 'fair' you want to use here. It's taken voluntarily in some sense. But so is the choice between starving vs cannibalism, if you have no other options. So that's not a very useful distinction.

If you want to help people, you not to improve their options, make sure that better options can be provided. That's very different from outlawing bad options, and just the opposite. (Ie giving the would-be cannibal access to some bread is actually helpful. Just banning cannibalism on the lifeboat only leads to starvation, if there are no other options.)

Conditions in the ship breaking industry will improve as other industries compete for workers with them.

For comparison, have a look at the working conditions of eg nannies in England today vs 800 years ago. They do essentially the same job, but get paid so much more in real terms. And not out of any generosity by their employers.

(You can pick many other professions, too.)

Re: Shipbreaking

#155

Post by throw10920 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #129
vasco wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To manipulate readers into realizing that industry doesn't pay their workers well?

basically. To manipulating the reader into thinking that workers being paid well or according to their "benefit" is the natural, logistical, or otherwise expected outcome. It is an attempt to switch the roles between what the conventional, familiar, and safe what is unconventional, weird, and strange. Paying workers according to "benefit" is not tried and true. It has real challenges and problems.

I don't think it's wrong to pay workers according to the value they provide. It's just not normal (again, not necessarily a good thing), so use of the word "strange" is inaccurate - in addition to being a manipulative use of the word (it's pretty clear that the writer doesn't actually think it's strange, and is using the word to tug on heart strings).

Re: Shipbreaking

#156

Post by throw10920 »

vasco wrote: post #118
throw10920 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not actually strange - GP is just using that word to emotionally manipulate readers.

To manipulate readers into realizing that industry doesn't pay their workers well?

HN is not an advocacy platform, so manipulative comments, like boringg's, and yours, are not appreciated.

Re: Shipbreaking

#157

Post by eru »

guidoism wrote: post #124
aredox wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trajectory of the last French air carriers - the Foch and the Clémenceau - is a good illustration of the mess it can be, even for former military flagships. Those military ships are of course full of asbestos - more than usual - and heavy metals. The Clémenceau was supposed to be dismantled in Spain, but when the marine nationale saw it being towed to Turkey, they cancelled the contract and got it back. Then anot…

I wonder how different each of the wikipedias are between languages. There's barely any info about the dismantling of the Clémenceau in the English wikipedia. I occasionally read the Spanish language wikipedia for South American history as it is more complete. As a someone fluent in both languages I feel like I have access to more knowledge. How much knowledge is "hidden" in other languages on Wikipedia? Would be coo…

> I wonder how different each of the wikipedias are between languages.

> As a someone fluent in both languages I feel like I have access to more knowledge.

Computers, like Google Translate, are pretty good these days for something like Wikipedia articles.

Re: Shipbreaking

#158

Post by eru »

fifilura wrote: post #46
aredox wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maritime industry, more than "the West", is a prime culprit there. Let's also mention how they skirt taxation, the use of flags of convenience, the lack of protection for crews, the matrioshka shell companies...

Also the clothes industry! The clothes brands claim to recycle cotton, but use 3rd party "recycling companies" to ship the textiles to Africa, where they just burn it in huge waste heaps. With huge environmental issues. https://www.greenpeace.org/africa/en/blog/54589/how-fast-fas... Computer "recycling" in Lagos/Nigeria is another topic.

> Also the clothes industry!

Compare Bangladesh: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...

Bangladesh has seen enormous economic growth in the past few decades, largely on the back of textile 'sweatshops' and also ship breaking. Real average Bangladeshis are better off as a result.

Granted, they went from 'dirt poor' to 'poor'. But that's still an enormous improvement. And more of a (relative) improvement than most other countries during the same time; and more of an improvement than in almost all other places throughout history.

Re: Shipbreaking

#159

Post by eru »

fifilura wrote: post #123
542458 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a bit confused as to how this investigation worked - how can they tell if clothes were ground for fiber with just airtags?

TL;DR 1. They travelled to the location (in Togo). 2. They found the guy who imported the jeans. He was about to try to resell them (along with huge bales of clothes), but most of the clothes are not sold. I dont think recycling was at the top of his mind. 3. The last signal was from a place where they use to make a fire of the clothes. 4. Most of the garments travel around the world as waste - not exactly good for t…

> He was about to try to resell them (along with huge bales of clothes), [...]

Regardless of what else is happening, reselling the clothes as is seems to be the best form of 'recycling' to me. Or rather 'reuse'.

> 4. Most of the garments travel around the world as waste - not exactly good for the environment.

As long as they travel by boat, the cost for that is minuscule. Both in terms of dollars and in terms of emissions.

(Yes, the ocean shipping industry burns a lot in absolute terms, but per kg of moved goods it is very, very efficient.)

Re: Shipbreaking

#160

Post by eru »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #150
Teever wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this law like that?

Europeans don't like the working conditions of shipbreakers in India, and don't like the pollution it creates in India. Europeans can't directly tell the Indians what they can and cannot do. Instead, the parent post is proposing to use the state surveillance app aratus to go after and prosecute the f** out of people that sell ships to India. I said it seems like a lot of work to try to stop someone in another country…

Yes. What you are describing is very similar to people always asking for federal laws, when states or counties could handle problems as well. Out of a fear that those savages down in state X could vote for the 'wrong' policy.
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