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FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

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Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#21
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

producing, distributing, and possessing obscene visual depictions of minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct[1][2] [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/man-arrested-producing-distri... [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1466A

Not a lawyer, but [2] indicate circumstance in section (d), that involves distribution; production without distribution would not satisfy that (?)

(Also not a lawyer)

The point of (d) is to create a jurisdictional hook for the US federal government. The federal government only has power over a limited number of offenses, including "interstate commerce" related offenses, but not most normal criminal offenses, which can only be criminalized by the states. So, for the federal government to regulate it, the easiest way is to only regulate things that involve interstate commerce somehow. In this case, downloading the Stable Diffusion model over the Internet probably creates enough of a hook, and this defendant is alleged to have done much more than that, so it's probably enough.

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#22
it seems to me like we're missing an opportunity to give these people a victim-free outlet for their urges.

i'm not really educated on what treatment looks like for these people, and harms to society from AI CSAM should obviously be considered too.

but some kind of "prescription" or otherwise regulated generation of these images should at least be considered, i think.

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#23
"Today’s announcement sends a clear message: using AI to produce sexually explicit depictions of children is illegal"

Not with the charges given. Prosecutors seem keen to push the normalisation angle, but would then have to explain why FPS games aren't also illegal. Unless they can prove real CSAM was used to train the model so they can draw a line from the material to the defendant's production.

Let's see if there are more charges to come.

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#24

it seems to me like we're missing an opportunity to give these people a victim-free outlet for their urges. i'm not really educated on what treatment looks like for these people, and harms to society from AI CSAM should obviously be considered too. but some kind of "prescription" or otherwise regulated generation of these images should at least be considered, i think.

It's not victimless if they use real images to train their AI models.

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#25
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's confusing because that was also my interpretation until I saw the quote from the DoJ prosecutor in the article: >“Today’s announcement sends a clear message: using AI to produce sexually explicit depictions of children is illegal, and the Justice Department will not hesitate to hold accountable those who possess, produce, or distribute AI-generated child sexual abuse material"

I completely understand forbidding the distribution to minors, but how can they hold accountable someone for producing CSAM and keeping all data in their hard drive? This sets a dangerous precedent; how is it different from simulating a murder, or simply speeding in a videogame? That "or distribute" should really be "and distribute"; the whole point should be to protect kids, not to punish people that are indeed fuck…

"Not harm society" will depend on what material the models are trained with.

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#26
post #21
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer, but [2] indicate circumstance in section (d), that involves distribution; production without distribution would not satisfy that (?)

(Also not a lawyer) The point of (d) is to create a jurisdictional hook for the US federal government. The federal government only has power over a limited number of offenses, including "interstate commerce" related offenses, but not most normal criminal offenses, which can only be criminalized by the states. So, for the federal government to regulate it, the easiest way is to only regulate things that involve inters…

Interesting, so an obscene cartoon drawing in pencil with a pencil purchased locally would not be an offense, but if the pencil was purchased interstate or by mail then it is.

Are there any actual cases on this? i.e., someone downloads a model, creates but does not distribute the results, gets convicted?

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#27
post #21
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer, but [2] indicate circumstance in section (d), that involves distribution; production without distribution would not satisfy that (?)

(Also not a lawyer) The point of (d) is to create a jurisdictional hook for the US federal government. The federal government only has power over a limited number of offenses, including "interstate commerce" related offenses, but not most normal criminal offenses, which can only be criminalized by the states. So, for the federal government to regulate it, the easiest way is to only regulate things that involve inters…

> In this case, downloading the Stable Diffusion model over the Internet probably creates enough of a hook

A prosecutor would say yes. Would a court?

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely understand forbidding the distribution to minors, but how can they hold accountable someone for producing CSAM and keeping all data in their hard drive? This sets a dangerous precedent; how is it different from simulating a murder, or simply speeding in a videogame? That "or distribute" should really be "and distribute"; the whole point should be to protect kids, not to punish people that are indeed fuck…

"Not harm society" will depend on what material the models are trained with.

Running some order of magnitudes, we've had people abusing children and taking photos of it since around 1850. By this point there is a large enough corpus of whatever horrors they want to look at that a model can be trained without doing any further harm.

It is a total waste of taxpayer funds to be going after someone if all they've done is generate however many images with stable diffusion. I'm glad in this case he's at least done something objectionable although an arrest seems a bit of an overreach, this seems to be the sort of situation that could be resolved with a fine rather than jail time based on skimming the indictment. If that.

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#29
post #26
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Also not a lawyer) The point of (d) is to create a jurisdictional hook for the US federal government. The federal government only has power over a limited number of offenses, including "interstate commerce" related offenses, but not most normal criminal offenses, which can only be criminalized by the states. So, for the federal government to regulate it, the easiest way is to only regulate things that involve inters…

Interesting, so an obscene cartoon drawing in pencil with a pencil purchased locally would not be an offense, but if the pencil was purchased interstate or by mail then it is. Are there any actual cases on this? i.e., someone downloads a model, creates but does not distribute the results, gets convicted?

I think prosecutors would probably argue that even using a pencil purchased locally meets the bar of making the "visual depiction... produced using materials.. or that have been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce by any means, including by computer".

The Commerce Clause has been read very expansively since the Wickard v. Filburn[1] in the New Deal era. One of the current legal projects of the Federalist Society, the conservative legal movement the current Supreme Court majority stems from, is rolling this back, and limiting the power of the Commerce Clause. They argue that reading the Commerce Clause so expansively coupled with modern technological/economic change gives the Federal Government effectively unchecked power to regulate behavior, which was contrary to the intention/design of the Constitution. Supporters of the current status quo argue that reading the Commerce Clause too narrowly would make the modern economy unmanageable and ungovernable. It's an open question how far the current Supreme Court will go in paring it back, but they have started narrowing parts of this doctrine.[2]

(There are no prior cases on this in the context of AI generated content in the United States, because this is the first time this offense has been charged for AI generated content in the United States. That's why it's so newsworthy and why I posted it - it's going to set some precedent, one way or another.)

I personally find the much more interesting argument here to be about obscenity. The obscenity doctrine places "obscene" speech completely outside the protection of the First Amendment. Previously, the Supreme Court ruled in Ashcroft vs FSC that for CSAM to be illegal, it must at least meet the bar for obscenity, or it must be produced via actual exploitation.[3] This is the most similar case I am aware of.

Obscenity doctrine in the United States is... a bit of a hot mess, in my humble opinion. The current test is as follows:

> The basic guidelines for the trier of fact must be: (a) whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards" would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest; (b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and (c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

To be blunt, I don't think anyone really knows what that word salad means. What are the "contemporary community standards"? Who is the "community"? What does it mean to be "patently offensive"? According to whom? The whole thing that makes exclusions to the First Amendment tenable is that they need to be really, really clear. Otherwise ambiguity in the standard leads to curtailment of expression by a chilling effect.

Furthermore, there's also this ruling[4] - that as far as I can tell is still good law - which makes it unconstitutional to ban the mere possession of obscene material. I don't think that applies here, because in this case, the defendant is alleged to have distributed the material widely. Furthermore, it also stems from a "right to privacy" the current Supreme Court is rather skeptical of.

There's not really a conclusion to all this. The main point here is that something is happening and that will probably result in interesting decisions later on.

[1] https://fedsoc.org/case/wickard-v-filburn; held that Congress could bar farmers from growing wheat on their own land for their own consumption.

[2] https://www.nlc.org/article/2023/06/15/supreme-court-decides...; limited the related Dormant Commerce Clause doctrine.

[3] https://www.oyez.org/cases/2001/00-795

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_v._Georgia

Re: FBI Arrests Man for Generating AI Child Sexual Abuse Imagery

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely understand forbidding the distribution to minors, but how can they hold accountable someone for producing CSAM and keeping all data in their hard drive? This sets a dangerous precedent; how is it different from simulating a murder, or simply speeding in a videogame? That "or distribute" should really be "and distribute"; the whole point should be to protect kids, not to punish people that are indeed fuck…

"Not harm society" will depend on what material the models are trained with.

how is that? the AI companies aren't commissioning new sexual abuse to train their models on.
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