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Bossware is a big legal risk

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Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#121

Post by wccrawford »

manuelmoreale wrote: post #102
paxys wrote: post #57

Everyone replying with "what's the big deal?" is showing their tech privilege. You may not have to deal with intrusive monitoring, but warehouse workers are increasingly being made to wear ankle bracelets so every movement of theirs can be monitored and stack ranked. Workers in WFH "gig" jobs are made to install always-on keyloggers and other monitoring software on their personal computers and phones (which are requi…

Not arguing against your points but I'm wondering if this is more a US related issue? I never heard this being a thing here in the EU but maybe it's just me being unaware of all the various situations. I don't know anyone who works from home (whether in tech and in other sectors) that has to deal with all that nonsense.

I had never heard of this in the US until now, either. But I also don't work in a factory or warehouse, and don't know anyone who does.

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#122

Post by quectophoton »

sanitycheck wrote: post #117
quectophoton wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year when I started looking for jobs I landed a job in a company that did consulting services. All looked fine on the outside, but when I joined I found out they are doing software for this kind of stalking, and even use AI to classify employees as "productive", "not productive", and other criteria based on their computer's activity. I noped the hell out of there without even having spent a week working for them…

I'd have done the same, and have done before when I've found myself on client projects related to online gambling (the business model is to milk addicts for everything they have and more, don't listen to anyone who says otherwise). I know if I don't do it someone else will so it doesn't really make a difference - but at least I can retain some sense that I'm not the kind of person who does bad things, and that's wort…

> With web tracking you can at least be 'careless' in your implementation and 'accidentally' make it not work very well because most of the time nobody will ever test it properly.

And users can normally install tracking blockers, either in browser or DNS-based (in your home's router), to at least prevent some thirdparty stuff from loading, so that's some defense against it.

Of course it's not always possible. But the chances that a user can do something against a web service tracking them are still better when compared to an employer's in-device tracking.

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#123

Post by MissTake »

mecha_ghidorah wrote: post #83
CoastalCoder wrote: post #7

I was surprised (perhaps I shouldn't have been) to encounter bossware-like surveilance in an interview process . About 6 months ago I was interviewing with InterSystems, a company that does healthcare software. Only when I signed in for the online coding interview did I learn that they required I have a webcam on myself the whole time. I don't like using coarse language. But it was the first time I struggled to not u…

I genuinely don't have a webcam. I mean my work laptop does, but I wouldn't be using my work laptop to interview with people. My home desktop doesn't have one though because I'd literally never use it, and no way I am buying one to take an interview test.

Presumably you have a smartphone?

Last I saw even the cheapest of Android phones had some form of “selfie” front facing camera.

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#124

Post by nicoburns »

manuelmoreale wrote: post #102
paxys wrote: post #57

Everyone replying with "what's the big deal?" is showing their tech privilege. You may not have to deal with intrusive monitoring, but warehouse workers are increasingly being made to wear ankle bracelets so every movement of theirs can be monitored and stack ranked. Workers in WFH "gig" jobs are made to install always-on keyloggers and other monitoring software on their personal computers and phones (which are requi…

Not arguing against your points but I'm wondering if this is more a US related issue? I never heard this being a thing here in the EU but maybe it's just me being unaware of all the various situations. I don't know anyone who works from home (whether in tech and in other sectors) that has to deal with all that nonsense.

I have a friend in the UK (and this was a few years ago when it was still part of the EU) who worked for a company that had always-on screen monitoring installed on company computers and their boss would randomly remotely view people's screens to check on what they were doing throughout the day.

That may not have been legal, but it was certainly happening.

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#125

Post by ghaff »

Dalewyn wrote: post #118
paxys wrote: post #57

Everyone replying with "what's the big deal?" is showing their tech privilege. You may not have to deal with intrusive monitoring, but warehouse workers are increasingly being made to wear ankle bracelets so every movement of theirs can be monitored and stack ranked. Workers in WFH "gig" jobs are made to install always-on keyloggers and other monitoring software on their personal computers and phones (which are requi…

>install always-on keyloggers and other monitoring software on their personal computers and phones 1. WTF is anyone doing using their personal belongings for their work? Cleanly and clearly demarcating personal and professional is CYA 101, for both employee and employer. 2. WTF is the employer doing if they don't provide all necessary tooling for the job prescribed? 3. WTF are you doing working for above employer? I…

Especially when I was traveling a lot I routinely used my personal laptop and phone all the time. You can WTF all you like but situations do differ.

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#126

Post by tiahura »

Terr_ wrote: post #108
apimade wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cybersecurity nerd here, have talked to many platform and financial company CISO’s, security teams and recruiters over the past few years. Fake interviewees are pretty rampant. We’re getting to the point where presenting yourself in-person to a government representative, agency or a private attestation company will be part of the onboarding process. At this point it looks like it’ll be iris scans. In the US it’s even…

> At this point it looks like it’ll be iris scans. Oh god no, a piece of not-that-secret information which can't be revoked when eventually leaked. "This is a courtesy alert that your iris scan has been found on the darkweb..."

Like your name or address?

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#127

Post by Zak »

fnordian_slip wrote: post #105
manuelmoreale wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not arguing against your points but I'm wondering if this is more a US related issue? I never heard this being a thing here in the EU but maybe it's just me being unaware of all the various situations. I don't know anyone who works from home (whether in tech and in other sectors) that has to deal with all that nonsense.

Germany reporting in, couldn't see that becoming a thing here. I have about 99% wfh currently, and if my employer would try to implement something like that, the union would probably not even have time to get involved because the works council ("Betriebsrat", not sure if that's a good translation) would swat it down instantly. It sounds insane, but believable for the US (but that might be my bias showing, I've always…

The fact that you have a Betriebsrat along with strong unions is why that sort of thing doesn't happen. Many European countries have works councils with a similar union-adjacent role. I'm not aware of an equivalent in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#128

Post by ghaff »

Lanolderen wrote: post #104
ebiester wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the interviewees going to come to my house? What do you do if you're a remote company?

Using a coworking space sounds viable. Past that maybe a cafe if it's not gonna be a heavily technical interview where you need peace, quiet and a whiteboard. Edit: Maybe a library? Most around me have rooms for working in groups.

Those remote companies deal with customer and supplier meetings presumably without using their living room.

I imagine there are people who want a remote position who don’t want to travel but at that point .

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#129

Post by yummypaint »

surfingdino wrote: post #59
CoastalCoder wrote: post #7

I was surprised (perhaps I shouldn't have been) to encounter bossware-like surveilance in an interview process . About 6 months ago I was interviewing with InterSystems, a company that does healthcare software. Only when I signed in for the online coding interview did I learn that they required I have a webcam on myself the whole time. I don't like using coarse language. But it was the first time I struggled to not u…

I was asked to be recorded answering three stupid questions like "what motivates you?", "why do you want to work here?" etc. before attending a multi-stage interview. I never got invited to that interview, and I did wonder if I could take them to court, because my CV showed me as good fit for the job (literally ticked all the boxes), but they clearly rejected me based on the video. (In case you wonder why I thought I…

Legal risk is probably the only thing that can stop this encroachment. No harm chatting with a lawyer to see what they think.

Re: Bossware is a big legal risk

#130

Post by tbyehl »

davely wrote: post #22
woleium wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just assume it does

No kidding! We have some ridiculous timeout on our work machines that triggers the screensaver after 2 minutes of idle time (we can’t change this). After it’s triggered, you need to enter your password to unlock (company mandated, 10 chars minimum, no repeating chars, at least 1 upper and 1 lower case char, at least 1 special symbol, change every 90 days, can't be too similar to last 10(!) passwords). Okay, this is a…

Knowledge that my employer might detect or block a software or USB mouse jiggler is why I ended up making a BLE mouse jiggler out of a Pico W.
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