This site[1], which is a pretty comprehensive list of claims Musk has made and how long it’s been, made the rounds on HN a few times. It’s really incredible how much exaggeration comes out of the guy’s mouth. I don’t think it all counts as fraud, but at some point you gotta say Dude, Stop Talking.
Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
61–70 of 189 posts
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#62This is about defrauding people who bought a tesla, not investors. > In 2020, Musk told a crowd in Shanghai that he remains “confident” that Tesla will achieve “basic functionality for level five autonomy this year,” referring to the SAE’s rankings of autonomy. Tesla’s technology, in 2024, is still at level 2. This reminds me alot of the Thernos case where she tried to make the case not about fraud but about an overl…
No, this should be about defrauding people who bought FSD for their Tesla. Most Tesla owners do not care about FSD, according to the estimates of subscription rates.
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
I purchased FSD in 2019 on the promise of self driving. 5 years later and still no self driving. There was also the promise of the car being able to self park. I would be happy if I got my money back for a feature that was never delivered.
same. at least we got in before the price jumped? We don't even have a hope as the new MCU doesn't even support getting backported to our car even if we were willing to pay for it.
Pretty sure it cost me more than the $2500 I paid. I tried smart summon one day. Instead of backing out of the space, it just ran forward up the curb on to the sidewalk. Couple years later the left strut failed costing me $2k.
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#64Absolutely. If Martha Stewart went to jail for much less, a certain CEO[1] should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. Some back-of-the-napkin-math: If we focus on the 4m Model 3 (& Y) vehicles sold that had these claims attached and assume that there was a peak uptake rate of 46% declining to 11% as these claims became obviously untrue. On FSD @ an ever-increasing price of $6000-$12000…
This could have been avoided just by calling it "Partial Self Driving" and then everything would be above board.
It's advanced cruise control, basically, and if advertised as such it'd be great.
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#65Absolutely. If Martha Stewart went to jail for much less, a certain CEO[1] should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. Some back-of-the-napkin-math: If we focus on the 4m Model 3 (& Y) vehicles sold that had these claims attached and assume that there was a peak uptake rate of 46% declining to 11% as these claims became obviously untrue. On FSD @ an ever-increasing price of $6000-$12000…
> A certain founder should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. I don't think "hard time" is appropriate for white collar crimes. Money is how you speak to these people. Martha Stewart is still worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
The issue is the fines aren't a big deterrence as they're not that big. A lot of fines are less than the money the company made or saved with the illicit activity so it just becomes a line item cost more than an actual penalty.
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#66I’ve seen the same meme over and over again in many different youtube videos: Elon musk assuring self-driving is just around the corner, just another few months… The investigation doesn’t interest me much. He has gotten slaps on the wrist before. Wake me up when he gets jail time.
As someone with a tesla and with a parent who bought the fsd beta package, I’d be very interested if there’s some kind of payout for consumers/customers!
There was this thread[0] around here about one buyer of FSD who took Tesla to small claims court and Tesla settled with them. Looks like it's easy enough to do.
It's just that Tesla demands gag clauses in the settlement which may be accepted by many people and we might never know how many settlements are out there. Thankfully the author in this instance knew they were going to win and there would be no gag clauses then. So why accept them in the settlement? Tesla caved, because they knew this too.
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Shouldn't fraud (for the end user/customer) be determined by claims made about the product at the time of sale, and not promises of what might be possible a few years from now? If you want to say promises of future features is fraud, then surely that would only be in relation to investors?
"It's almost ready" is a claim about the product at the time of sale.
"Almost ready" as a claim is pretty meaningless. It's a statement of feature status, not a prediction of when 100% completion occurs. In software, "almost" can last years or decades.
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
This could have been avoided just by calling it "Partial Self Driving" and then everything would be above board.
That’s what they call it in the aerospace industry /s
"Self driving" means something. There are industry standards for that phraseology that pre-date Tesla's (mis)usage.
"Autopilot" may have been colloquially misleading (because of the public's unfamiliarity with aviation), but I don't think that name was problematic. Autopilot in planes can historically look like a basic cruise control.
However, some of the associated statements and demonstrations at that time were problematic. (e.g. "The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.")
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#69Absolutely. If Martha Stewart went to jail for much less, a certain CEO[1] should be doing some hard time for ludicrous claims over the past 8 years. Some back-of-the-napkin-math: If we focus on the 4m Model 3 (& Y) vehicles sold that had these claims attached and assume that there was a peak uptake rate of 46% declining to 11% as these claims became obviously untrue. On FSD @ an ever-increasing price of $6000-$12000…
I think Martha Stewart went to jail for insider trading idk how similar that is. With OTA updates still could claim this could happen.
This imo is less than both Theranos and insider trading like the FSD has disclaimers right? Unless the argument is Tesla is only valuable because of FSD and not best in class EV experience
The pay package being declined by a Delaware court and now this couldnt have come at a worse time for Musk though. Billionaires got their problems too huh
Re: Tesla is being investigated for securities and wire fraud for self-driving claim
#70Securities fraud again, funny that the guy who "bought Twitter" and shut down free speech ended up getting sued himself due to his own tweet (lying about # of Teslas being produced). It's like a bully trying to chase someone but tripping over their shoelace in the first step, love it. On self-driving: For several years the guy has been saying "next month" "next year" it's been like 10+ years at this point. He's a big…
I think Musk is just relaying the promises he receives from ML/AI guys he employes. As far as I know FSD has always been a paid option.
[deleted]