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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

forbes.com

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#251

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

alistairSH wrote: post #228
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of anti-union propaganda, and some of it is self-inflicted. Anyone that has ever participated in a trade show at the Javits Center, has seen unions do serious damage to their own cause.

Yeah, LV and NYC convention sites are probably the worst/most-obvious examples. Plenty of stories of presenters being disallowed from plugging in their own equipment without a union employee there to assist and other things like that.

The worst I heard, was one of our sales reps (a woman) came in, with a "weekender" purse (big purse). She was stopped at the door, and wasn't allowed to enter the main hall, for about five minutes, until someone was called over, with one of those huge, hydraulic skateboards they use for moving big furniture.

They put her purse onto the center of the cart, and escorted her to the booth. Then, they got upset she only tipped one guy $5.

I know these are "one-off" stories (and she probably gave attitude), but there's so many of these anecdotes, that it causes huge damage.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#252

Post by DiggyJohnson »

DrewRWx wrote: post #97
hackernewds wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that actually true, you do see unionized pilots and police unions functioning pretty unproductively and in bad faith

Police aren't labor and therefore are not a labor union.

What are they if they're not "labor"? Certainly a police officer considers their upcoming shift as "work". Certainly the police could not function without on-duty officers on patrol and at the precinct?

I hate to be so blunt on this site, but what is the flippin point of these sort of definitional and semantic arguments? What are you trying to gain, other than muddying the waters of conversations. I legitimately don't see how any position, yours or otherwise, benefits from this rhetorical approach.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#253

Post by atmosx »

Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

I recall a graph that Yale prof Ian Shapiro showed in his lecture series "Power and Politics in Today’s World" (available on YouTube) that shows a strong correlation between participation fall in worker unions and wage stagnation as opposed to corporation profits in the US. The break point is the fall of the Berlin wall. IIRC he goes on to explain how's that not an accident.

I don't remember which lecture was it though :-/

Here's the YT Link for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyViG2ar68j...

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#254

Post by lightbritefight »

trollbridge wrote: post #191
sebtron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of unions is to make sure the employees work is sustainable, easier, pleasant if possible. On a more practical level this means enforcing work regulations, if an employer is at risk of breaking regulations (intentionally or not), unions will help them keep the line. A happier employee is more productive and less likely to leave the company on the forst occasion or do anything hostile (stealing, selling co…

Delta’s flight attendants (and a few other groups) aren’t in a union. This has left Delta very motivated to make sure their flight attendants are happy so that they won’t unionise. The end result is better workers, happier customers, and more productive workplace. But this wouldn’t happen without the threat of unionising hanging over Delta’s head. I personally think a good outcome in situations like Apple is having m…

Union autoworkers make more and habe better benefits than non union auto workers.

You know that when the big non unionized auto workers recebtly got raises? Right after the unionised ones fought for and got their own.

The union is the only thing that drives wages up. Non union shops, including your example of Delta flight staff, only get benefits because the unions are there. Without the other unions in that space, they would get nothing.

You know what would ensure Delta gets all the same benefits as the unionized staff around them? Joining the same union.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#255

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

trollbridge wrote: post #194
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #115

In Japan, there's a really symbiotic relationship between unions and corporations. Unions are very powerful, but they also take stakes in the corporations. I'm pretty sure that union reps often sit on corporate boards. Japan has a long culture of employee relations, but they also work their asses off. I don't think Japanese unions would cover slackers, which is a popular view of US unions.

My friend’s brother was in the pipefitter’s union. Those guys worked so hard, I don’t think I would have lasted a week on the jobsite. He eventually quit after saving enough money because of the long hours and hard physical work. He did get paid very well, got good overtime for those long hours, and safety came first. The benefits of a union. It may be better to say “Unions cover workers whom management accuses of be…

Unions are why people that do difficult, dangerous, dirty work, can afford to live in cities like New York.

The apprenticeship system is just as difficult and time-consuming as college (maybe more so).

The issues with unions often revolve around corruption, but there seems to be corruption in almost any human endeavor.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#256

Post by randomdata »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #252
DrewRWx wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police aren't labor and therefore are not a labor union.

What are they if they're not "labor"? Certainly a police officer considers their upcoming shift as "work". Certainly the police could not function without on-duty officers on patrol and at the precinct? I hate to be so blunt on this site, but what is the flippin point of these sort of definitional and semantic arguments? What are you trying to gain, other than muddying the waters of conversations. I legitimately don'…

> What are you trying to gain, other than muddying the waters of conversations

How does enhanced clarity muddy the waters? Police are not labor, not practically or legally. Likewise, a CEO is not labor either, even though the CEO is apt to be an employee who shows up to work just like anyone else. Having a job that you go to work at is not what defines labor in this context. Considering all people who do work to be the same is what muddies the waters here.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#257

Post by beanjuiceII »

Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

I've been involved with an IT union for 15 years of my career, i don't know how the data shows there's little negative impact... it's a catastrophic mess from what I've seen

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#258

Post by shakes_mcjunkie »

beanjuiceII wrote: post #257
Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

I've been involved with an IT union for 15 years of my career, i don't know how the data shows there's little negative impact... it's a catastrophic mess from what I've seen

What issues are you seeing?

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#259

Post by TheCleric »

harimau777 wrote: post #201
FpUser wrote: post #143

I am not sure how they can "interrogate" stuff. Can't they be simply told to go fuck themselves and do not stick their nose where it does not belong?

America has "at will employment". Except for certain classes (gender, disability, race, etc.) that are illegal to discriminate against, an employer can fire someone for any reason. Therefore, employees have to go along with what the employer wants in order to keep their job; even if what the employer wants is unreasonable or illegal.

I agree with you with the caveat that it's "only" most of America (it can vary by state and even whether you work for the local government or not).

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#260

Post by DiggyJohnson »

alkonaut wrote: post #137
SamWhited wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling with what you meant by "it's just a language thing", that is of course true and what I was pointing out. For the purpose of good communication, everything is a language thing and language things are important. When we say "the police union isn't a labor union", we're people rejecting them from the classification even though they use the word because we don't think they fit in with our values. That's be…

> I'm struggling with what you meant by "it's just a language thing", that is of course true and what I was pointing out. For the purpose of good communication, everything is a language thing and language things are important. Ok fair enough. In english there is a distinction between just "Union" and "labor union". And under this distinction, a police union would not be a labor union. Language is important. Moving be…

By the way I feel the need to share that despite this conversation, somewhere between few and no Americans distinguish between "union" and "labor union". This is the first time I've seen the difference and I believe those who are making this point are downplaying the fact that in common language these are used entirely interchangeably.

Not saying I disagree or agree with their point, but that this rhetorical method of argument by definition doesn't match reality.

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