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Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

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Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#71

Post by paxys »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #55
paxys wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's impossible to generalize this without factoring in the external environment. Put a group of mentally stable people together in a safe, hospitable community with unlimited resources and yes the theory will probably hold true. But what happens when the food runs out? If there's a natural disaster? A plague? Some other crisis? What if they get invaded by a neighboring tribe whose intentions aren't so great? That's…

Actually in times of crisis and war communities tend to bond together.

Yeah, we totally saw that during Covid...

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#72

Post by maxerickson »

mc32 wrote: post #24
_benj wrote: post #15

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. I find this definition interesting because it seems to me there’s a very prevalent portrayal in media pointing towards the opposite, that is that humans left alone (read, without some powerful/wealthy authority) will unravel into the most depraved state imaginable. Reading the book f…

Anarchy probably works okay in low density areas rich in natural resources resulting in low competition. The pastoral idyll, the hunter gatherers, etc. Once you get high density, anonymity, etc. that comes with towns and cities it probably breaks down quite a bit and you need a force to keep it from imploding.

There's plenty of people that will use the boot for the joy of using the boot.

Hunter gatherers don't really universally not have hierarchical societies. Both explicit and implicit.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#73

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

beaeglebeachh wrote: post #50
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #19

That is not the real test: The real test is: Your friend’s daughter had her drink spiked and then was raped while passed out by a bunch of frat guys. If you believe that you and your buddies should get together with guns and baseball bats and go to the Frat house and exact justice/revenge on them, then you might really be an anarchist. All the situations outlined are nice and good. Self-organization should be the def…

The state doesn't enforce anything resembling justice for rape. Rape is rarely prosecuted and difficult to prove in a court of law.

The effectiveness of the state’s enforcement is orthogonal to whether you believe it is their responsibility.

Do you believe that the state should be trying to enforce justice for rape, or do you think it should be the responsibility of a “self-organizing” posse?

If we agree that it is the state’s responsibility, then we can talk about ways to improve it. But then, you are already not an anarchist.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#75

Post by beaeglebeachh »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #73
beaeglebeachh wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state doesn't enforce anything resembling justice for rape. Rape is rarely prosecuted and difficult to prove in a court of law.

The effectiveness of the state’s enforcement is orthogonal to whether you believe it is their responsibility. Do you believe that the state should be trying to enforce justice for rape, or do you think it should be the responsibility of a “self-organizing” posse? If we agree that it is the state’s responsibility, then we can talk about ways to improve it. But then, you are already not an anarchist.

I don't view justice as a responsibility but rather as a right for the victim. Whether the victim stops the rape with a 9mm hole in the aggressors head, sends posse, or sends a judge to do it are private matter for the victim to choose not for me to dictate.

The problematic parts come up with how you pay the judge (stealing from 3rd parties), jailers etc and much the other stuff the state does. It would probably be more pragmatic to basically privatize the judge/court.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#76

Post by mc32 »

maxerickson wrote: post #72
mc32 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchy probably works okay in low density areas rich in natural resources resulting in low competition. The pastoral idyll, the hunter gatherers, etc. Once you get high density, anonymity, etc. that comes with towns and cities it probably breaks down quite a bit and you need a force to keep it from imploding.

There's plenty of people that will use the boot for the joy of using the boot. Hunter gatherers don't really universally not have hierarchical societies. Both explicit and implicit.

True. Just saying I see it being a viable system in some instances of those circumstances, but not all, nor most. But that under those circumstances it has a viable path.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#77

Post by mc32 »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #32
pif wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, anarchy was the default state of human nature until communities reached Dunbar's number, i.e. around 150 people. Then, they did invent civilization for a reason!

This civilization meant exploitation of peasants, genocide of Native Americans, slavery, exploitation of women. It created a lot of wars and suffering. I treat anarchism as a direction to try to get nice parts of current world (scientific research, some technologies like advanced medicine) without the inequalities and suffering that was done along the way. Anarchists postulate structures, a lot of them postulate repl…

Don’t kid yourself. Native Americans were just like any other peoples and warred against each other, took slaves or simply put the losers under the sword. People in any system are still people with the same tendencies. Culture can influence people up to a point. Even in strict places where you get killed for certain peccadillos people who enforce those mores are known to engage in those same peccadillos.

People might think the British were not brutal with their own people, but if you read up on the Clearances, you’d know they valued people less than sheep.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#78

Post by izacus »

paxys wrote: post #71
Synaesthesia wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually in times of crisis and war communities tend to bond together.

Yeah, we totally saw that during Covid...

We absolutely saw that in pretty much every crisis and wartime studied.

And yes, even in COVID times people banded together across countries to help each other.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#79

Post by pookha »

paxys wrote: post #71
Synaesthesia wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually in times of crisis and war communities tend to bond together.

Yeah, we totally saw that during Covid...

LOL. I got screamed at by a lunatic because my three year olds trainrobber bandana wasn't covering her nose. Banding together has caveats.
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