Live data from Hacker News

Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

theanarchistlibrary.org

41–50 of 110 posts

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#41
Looking at the closing para...

> Now, you might object that all this is well and good as a way for small groups of people to get on with each other, but managing a city, or a country, is an entirely different matter. And of course there is something to this. Even if you decentralize society and put as much power as possible in the hands of small communities, there will still be plenty of things that need to be coordinated, from running railroads to deciding on directions for medical research. But just because something is complicated does not mean there is no way to do it democratically. It would just be complicated. In fact, anarchists have all sorts of different ideas and visions about how a complex society might manage itself. To explain them though would go far beyond the scope of a little introductory text like this. Suffice it to say, first of all, that a lot of people have spent a lot of time coming up with models for how a really democratic, healthy society might work; but second, and just as importantly, no anarchist claims to have a perfect blueprint. The last thing we want is to impose prefab models on society anyway. The truth is we probably can’t even imagine half the problems that will come up when we try to create a democratic society; still, we’re confident that, human ingenuity being what it is, such problems can always be solved, so long as it is in the spirit of our basic principles — which are, in the final analysis, simply the principles of fundamental human decency.

...and comparing it to Wikipedia's take...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy

...I'm thinking that the article is actually advocating for an idyllic version of small-government democracy. Not anarchy.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#42
post #15

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. I find this definition interesting because it seems to me there’s a very prevalent portrayal in media pointing towards the opposite, that is that humans left alone (read, without some powerful/wealthy authority) will unravel into the most depraved state imaginable. Reading the book f…

[deleted]

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#43
post #15

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. I find this definition interesting because it seems to me there’s a very prevalent portrayal in media pointing towards the opposite, that is that humans left alone (read, without some powerful/wealthy authority) will unravel into the most depraved state imaginable. Reading the book f…

Yep which is why I'm ancap anarchist not socialist anarchist which seems almost an oxymoron. You cannot take things from people, like means of production they've produced, and force them to share without aggression.

All anarchism stems from voluntary interactions, which depends on free trade .

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#44

the best example for a anarchist state is Japan

What? There was anarchist movement in Japan, but it was heavily supressed by the Japanese state and later also by the allied states. An anarchist state is also kind of an oxymoron.

Reaction I: Cross off "kind of"

Reaction II: Well...Japan often is an extremely poor fit for Western conceptual pigeonholes...

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#45

Looking at the closing para... > Now, you might object that all this is well and good as a way for small groups of people to get on with each other, but managing a city, or a country, is an entirely different matter. And of course there is something to this. Even if you decentralize society and put as much power as possible in the hands of small communities, there will still be plenty of things that need to be coordi…

Anarchy does not mean absence of organisation. It means absence of unfair dominance and control of one over another. An anarchist society could be highly organised, in all kinds of ways people decide to.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#46
post #40
post #15

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. I find this definition interesting because it seems to me there’s a very prevalent portrayal in media pointing towards the opposite, that is that humans left alone (read, without some powerful/wealthy authority) will unravel into the most depraved state imaginable. Reading the book f…

It's impossible to generalize this without factoring in the external environment. Put a group of mentally stable people together in a safe, hospitable community with unlimited resources and yes the theory will probably hold true. But what happens when the food runs out? If there's a natural disaster? A plague? Some other crisis? What if they get invaded by a neighboring tribe whose intentions aren't so great? That's…

You do not have to wait for food to run out. There is always 'that one guy trying to ice skate uphill'. They test the limits on everything and do not care about others at all. It only takes one jerk to ruin a party. I know at least 4 people like this, probably more (they hide it better). They would rob you in a heartbeat if they could get away with it and even if they cant. But in general they seem nice and happy and stable. The reality is they just do not want to get caught.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#47

Looking at the closing para... > Now, you might object that all this is well and good as a way for small groups of people to get on with each other, but managing a city, or a country, is an entirely different matter. And of course there is something to this. Even if you decentralize society and put as much power as possible in the hands of small communities, there will still be plenty of things that need to be coordi…

Graeber was anarchist but did work to make it palatable to liberal minded readers. Graeber doesn’t advocate for hierarchy. If you want examples of how the O of the Anarchy symbol could work and maybe did work in our human past, as organizations without hierarchy, see Dawn of Everything

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#48

>The first is that human beings are, under ordinary circumstances, about as reasonable and decent as they are allowed to be, and can organize themselves and their communities without needing to be told how. That's a crock of shit, look at how brutal early civilizations were compared to today. You have an argument over long terms (100+ year spans), but not in the near term. If you want the assumption to apply to the n…

[deleted]

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#49

The terms anarchist and libertarian are both really misunderstood (or misused?) today. At least in the US, most people seem to think libertarians are anarchists and anarchists are terrorists that want to lice in The Purge. I guess that does kind of make sense though. We also don't use the left/right spectrum the way most other cultures do and we've totally redefined what it means to be liberal or conservative. Well l…

Anarchism has been unfairly maligned, it’s basically associated with bomb thrower. But it’s really not about that.

Re: Are You an Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You by David Graeber (2000)

#50

That is not the real test: The real test is: Your friend’s daughter had her drink spiked and then was raped while passed out by a bunch of frat guys. If you believe that you and your buddies should get together with guns and baseball bats and go to the Frat house and exact justice/revenge on them, then you might really be an anarchist. All the situations outlined are nice and good. Self-organization should be the def…

The state doesn't enforce anything resembling justice for rape. Rape is rarely prosecuted and difficult to prove in a court of law.
Post reply on HN