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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

forbes.com

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#181

Post by germinalphrase »

ein0p wrote: post #9
jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

Public school education is poor in part because it’s darn near impossible to fire bad teachers though. And I don’t see how unions would improve housing affordability. I’m not against unions per se, particularly for positions which are not as lavishly compensated as a typical white collar FAANG employee. I’m merely pointing out that you need to pick better examples. Otherwise you just undermine your own argument.

FWIW, my decade as a high school English teacher indicates otherwise. People weren’t let go in the middle of a semester, but they would absolutely be let go without fuss during the summer break.

I never experienced anything like the about “rubber rooms” in NYC (they may exist in NYC, IDK - but the suggestion that they are “business as usual” in school districts across the country is a fantastical lie). If admin wanted a teacher gone, they simply put them on the education version of a PIP, collected evidence of poor performance, and let that person go at a non-disruptive time.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#182

Post by whywhywhywhy »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

> I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining.

If you're talented and skilled then collective bargaining hurts your position because now every low rung and non-productive is along for the ride with your bargaining.

> Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as…

Inequality is inevitable and its only going to get a lot lot worse, in 20 years time you'll dream for house prices as they are today. The only way out is in your own hands and collective bargaining will just mean existing in a slightly better low with the people a fraction of your skills and drive, any small union win will be inflated to nothing in single digit years but if you bargain on your own there is no real limit if you can back up what you're asking for.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#183

Post by sct202 »

Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

A lot of large companies like to have standardized policies across the company so they can shuffle people where ever they need and everything is the same. Unions are usually location by location and often only cover a specific classification of the employees in a location (manufacturing, warehouse, maintenance, sanitation, and/or truck drivers), and each union will bargain on its own so you can have a single location running with multiple unique union contracts for each classification of employee. This is a PITA to manage for big slow corporations who would need teams of lawyers and HR people working thru and negotiating each contract individually and getting approvals from above.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#184

Post by theshackleford »

mogiddy55 wrote: post #164
pashsoft wrote: post #103

It seems like most of the "union problems" in the US arise from workers clashing with overly-greedy, abusive employers. The employer generally has more power in this relationship, and uses that power to squeeze every last bit of value out of their workforce. The workforce has few ways to push back against this, with unions being one of the options. Maybe if other options were on the table, there would be fewer union…

The corporations are the only ones that can pay the salaries being requested by labor activists though. IMO, a lot of the agitation for higher wages as a universal right has a negative effect on smaller businesses, while the corporations (which are the actual targets) have an easier time adapting to changes in federal and state law, for example by compensating with foreign revenue. I can't imagine it makes starting a…

> I can't imagine it makes starting a new small business any easier when you're required to pay employees $20/hr.

Oh no! Anyway…

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#185

Post by indymike »

bell-cot wrote: post #95
Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

Read up on primate behavior. Top executives are alpha males, and didn't get there without lots of compulsive control-seeking, dominance-asserting, etc. behavior patterns.

> Top executives are alpha males

This is not accurate at all and really has very little place in rational discussion.

> didn't get there without lots of compulsive control-seeking, dominance-asserting, etc. behavior patterns

Some executives in some company cultures are like this. Most companies I've worked at or collaborated with did not put up with this behavior at all.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#186

Post by baq »

bko wrote: post #162
baq wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

employers have HR, employees have unions. HR is corporate police. employers hate the idea of having employee police.

I think employers hate having to deal with a gatekeeper and some rubric as to who they can hire to do what, how much to pay them etc I've worked in places where there was union labor for building management. You literally weren't allowed to unplug your computer and move it yourself. You had to file a ticket and have somebody come and do it for you and bill handsomely to do it. What's not to love from an employer pers…

yes, employers hate that, employees also hate that. dumb police is dumb police - union or HR.

HR usually doesn't do stupid shit like that because it reduces employer KPIs so even if they do that for some time it gets killed quickly. unions have different KPIs to optimise for and if they're pathological and/or parasitic, you get dumb shit like the above.

an union which is not a parasite is absolutely possible in the same way a non-exploiting employer is also possible.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#187

Post by trollbridge »

sct202 wrote: post #183
Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

A lot of large companies like to have standardized policies across the company so they can shuffle people where ever they need and everything is the same. Unions are usually location by location and often only cover a specific classification of the employees in a location (manufacturing, warehouse, maintenance, sanitation, and/or truck drivers), and each union will bargain on its own so you can have a single location…

One would think that technology could offer fancy scheduling, HR, etc. solutions for this.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#188

Post by loceng »

nolok wrote: post #113
pashsoft wrote: post #103

It seems like most of the "union problems" in the US arise from workers clashing with overly-greedy, abusive employers. The employer generally has more power in this relationship, and uses that power to squeeze every last bit of value out of their workforce. The workforce has few ways to push back against this, with unions being one of the options. Maybe if other options were on the table, there would be fewer union…

> Maybe if other options were on the table, there would be fewer union problems? As a worker, would you join a union for protection (and pay for it) if your government provided robust legal defences for you? Yes. The solution you provide might seem to on the surface, but it doesn't in reality. Let me give you an existing exemple, and one that people associate with strong workers right and yet the relation between wor…

I don't think the conversation gets to a high enough level of complexity as it necessarily should for employees to fully understand the stakes.

They need to always include the influence of industrial complexes and an uneven playing field with international competition, nations not having same cost structures because not having alignment on services and quality of life minimums for its population - so those who don't take care of their population as well get a competition advantage on pricing.

Fascism also needs to come into play, for example, when countries give certain companies $10s of billions of the taxpayers' money to "compete" for those factories being local instead of built somewhere else, but the serious risk is fascism is authoritarian politicians partnering with industrial complexes, so long as the companies receiving the money are willing to toe the tyrannical line.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#189

Post by trollbridge »

This seems to be part of a persistent pattern of businesses thinking they are above the law, and when challenged, the filing of endless countersuits and appeals.

At some point, the democratic process elected Congress and the laws passed therein, and businesses exist at the pleasure of the people and their elected representatives, not the other way around. A business that doesn’t want to unionise is free to close up shop and go out of business. They are not free to simply ignore lawful unionisation activity.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#190

Post by indymike »

couchand wrote: post #120
hackernewds wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that actually true, you do see unionized pilots and police unions functioning pretty unproductively and in bad faith

With even a basic history of labor power under capitalism it's clear that police are one of the greatest threats to organozed workers due to their role enforcing the capitalist status quo. Don't expect a wolf in sheeps' clothing to baa.

In the US police are often members of a union, and collaborate with the strikers, causing companies to hire professional security companies. Honestly, I have a hard time feeling much compassion for companies where the workforce unionizes: most of the time unionization is a relic of terrible management behavior over a substantial period of time.
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