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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#71

Post by ok_dad »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #57
sebtron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of unions is to make sure the employees work is sustainable, easier, pleasant if possible. On a more practical level this means enforcing work regulations, if an employer is at risk of breaking regulations (intentionally or not), unions will help them keep the line. A happier employee is more productive and less likely to leave the company on the forst occasion or do anything hostile (stealing, selling co…

The purpose of unions is to extract as much as possible from the employer on the behalf of its members, or at least to extract more than the employer would otherwise have given. You do not contradict anything I have written nor provide any examples of how unions might be a positive for employers... Again, if an happier, more productive employee benefits the company then the market will sort it out by itself (For inst…

You're saying "the market" like it's some magic word that makes everything fair. The market for employment is not fair. Companies hold most of the power in America today, for most jobs. Highly paid white collar workers may hold a slight edge, sometimes, but it's not common. One of the ways that workers can balance the power that a company has over them, is to unionize so that as a group all of the workers can affect the company's decisions. This is good for the market, because it equalizes power and allows for the synthesis of good efficiency through fair price discovery for labor and good worker conditions through the equality of power that they hold in a union.

You can scream THE MARKET until your throat is dry, but it doesn't mean that an unfettered capitalism is the best thing for the country as a whole. Everyone must be thriving, otherwise we're all failing together.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#72

Post by lupusreal »

walthamstow wrote: post #11
ein0p wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public school education is poor in part because it’s darn near impossible to fire bad teachers though. And I don’t see how unions would improve housing affordability. I’m not against unions per se, particularly for positions which are not as lavishly compensated as a typical white collar FAANG employee. I’m merely pointing out that you need to pick better examples. Otherwise you just undermine your own argument.

Neither of you are giving examples, only conjecture. Bad teachers are a noteworthy cause of poor schools. House prices wouldn't be so high if we had unions. Ok, prove it. Or at least give me some reasoning to go off.

> Bad teachers are a noteworthy cause of poor schools

You have that completely backward. Virtually all bad teachers start out hopeful and excited to teach kids, that's why they become teachers in the first place. They are then worn and beaten down by bad schools. Bad schools are mostly caused by bad students, who are disrespectful, disruptive, get into fights, etc. Bad students are mostly caused by bad parenting. If they aren't raised to respect adults, education, authority and their peers, then there is little that teachers can do about it. The reason "bad schools" have trouble keeping enough teachers despite high levels of state and federal funding is because the students burn through the teachers quickly. The teachers who hang on for a long time at those schools are often ones that develop coping strategies like not giving a shit, finding pleasure in yelling at kids, etc.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#73

Post by ExoticPearTree »

komali2 wrote: post #35
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. I had the displeasure of working with union labor in the US, they would come in at 7 (who does that) and leave at 4 on the dot. Then worked with non-union labor: cheaper, worked as much as possible per day, got the job done faster. Money-wise it was less than union labor. Now tell me how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff…

> how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff done, to use union workers? For the company, it's very good, because unionization, or better yet, being a co-op, means your company will be more likely to be profitable in the long term. But you are correct that in these situations, your employees are more difficult to exploit for longer hours, harsher conditions, and worse pay. So yes, if you're trying to be a majo…

I think you should read my initial comment again. And then the next one, answering to an angry person just like you: It is about working as much as it is needed to get work done, not about not paying. And there is nothing wrong in getting the best possible price on a contract.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#74

Post by badgersnake »

jajko wrote: post #20
jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

You are trying to blame literally every public policy failure in US on unions, that's simply incorrect and they stem from many other sources. I know its convenient in some populist fashion, but unless you understand the root cause of each of those, any sort of fix has no chance of arriving. Unions make corporations extremely sluggish when they need to react quickly to sudden market shocks or changes of direction of c…

It’s far easier to tell people that if we just fix this one thing then everything will be fine than try to deal with the complexity of the world and actually make things better.

In the UK it’s been the EU, which we left so they moved on to immigrants. That was too hard to fix so they’ve recently decided to pick on the sick.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#75

Post by globular-toast »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #34
Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

If it made no difference why would employees bother? It does make a negative difference for employers with potentially higher costs and lower flexibility over time.

You're assuming it's a zero sum game?

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#76

Post by weberer »

impossiblefork wrote: post #61
nox101 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIUC the USA spend near the top per student of all countries. Why is it other countries get better results with less money? https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-exp...

Yes, but if we look at teacher salaries, the average in the state of New York is 79 637. In Sweden it's around 41550 SEK per month, which implies 498 000 SEK per year, which including the tax would be 647 400 SEK per year, i.e. 59 000 USD. But Sweden has a per capita GDP of 56000 USD whereas the per capita GDP of New York State is 104343. It's not going to be incredibly competitive.

You need to subtract the tax rate, not add it.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#77

Post by close04 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #57
sebtron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of unions is to make sure the employees work is sustainable, easier, pleasant if possible. On a more practical level this means enforcing work regulations, if an employer is at risk of breaking regulations (intentionally or not), unions will help them keep the line. A happier employee is more productive and less likely to leave the company on the forst occasion or do anything hostile (stealing, selling co…

The purpose of unions is to extract as much as possible from the employer on the behalf of its members, or at least to extract more than the employer would otherwise have given. You do not contradict anything I have written nor provide any examples of how unions might be a positive for employers... Again, if an happier, more productive employee benefits the company then the market will sort it out by itself (For inst…

> if an happier, more productive employee benefits the company then the market will sort it out by itself

I don't think this argument in particular stands well against reality. The market is generally driven by players with concentrated power and it's very likely the interests of those players will align creating an even more one sided power imbalance. People's preferences are low entropy.

Things that are in the interest of individuals rarely "sort themselves out" without some intervention, usually from a regulatory body. And even that's less a democratic exercise than it is a lobbying one where concentrated donations are worth more than sparse individual contributions.

In the US there was a time when more people could own a house, car, and raise a family with just one family member's income. Now it's increasingly difficult to do it even with two incomes. People didn't decide to just work more and afford less. The market sorted itself to benefit those who already had more power and could influence.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#78

Post by ExoticPearTree »

badcppdev wrote: post #64
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. I had the displeasure of working with union labor in the US, they would come in at 7 (who does that) and leave at 4 on the dot. Then worked with non-union labor: cheaper, worked as much as possible per day, got the job done faster. Money-wise it was less than union labor. Now tell me how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff…

> they would come in at 7 (who does that) To answer your question human beings who want work life balance and want to do things with friends and family in the afternoon. Or do you believe that a work day should ONLY be for work?

My gripe is with the fact that somehow they got the building owner to only allow union work. And by doing this, they distorted the market in having no option but to get things done on someone else's schedule. And having this kind of restrictions is hurtful to the business.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#79

Post by ok_dad »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #68
ok_dad wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now tell me how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff done, to use union workers? Because in a race to the bottom, even the winner ends up in shit. The reason America is turning to crap now is because everyone is just out for themselves, and that's mostly folks like you who just want to get stuff done cheaply. Unions may not be the answer for your company, but please at least treat your workers like they ma…

Y'all missing the point in this: - I hired a company to do some construction work and in that particular location, due to how the contracts were set, I could only get union work. Expensive and no over time. - In another location which did not had this kind of restriction, I hired another company that was not unionized: they worked longer hours and as a result finished faster. Also their hourly rates were lower. Point…

Have you ever researched the difference between the companies, the workers, how satisfied they are, how much they are paid, and why it was a quarter cheaper? You keep saying how the union affected you for your two projects, and how the union was the bad guys because you had to spend more time and money. Did you ever think that perhaps the workers at the union company could have been secure in their jobs, happy with their work/life balance and that the workers at the other company could be beaten down, pushed too hard, paid too little?

In any case, your few experiences could be caused by a lot of stuff, perhaps not even the union! I don't know, without more research. Your particular story is from your perspective only, and doesn't even delve into any other reasons this could have happened, like local noise ordnances or something.

This is my point: you don't care about the human cost of your entrepreneurial enterprises, and that is in my opinion the reason that America seems to be infighting and "going downhill" as they say. Greed, an uncaring attitude about others, and narcissistic "me me me" behavior is the problem, not a few workers trying to get a bigger cut. Unions aren't the enemy, those who would attempt to take advantage of workers are. America is only strong if we're all strong, not just a few tenths of a percent at the top.

I am not replying any more to this thread, all I have to say was said here.

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