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U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

forbes.com

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Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#31

Post by mytailorisrich »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

I suspect most people here are highly educated in sought-after, high-paying jobs. There is a valid point that the net benefits of unions in such cases are low.

Workers unions were created by and for factory workers, miners, etc. People who had zero leverage individually.

In addition, we might be a more individualistic and competive crowd who think they are better than average and thus better off bargaining for themselves.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#32

Post by komali2 »

ein0p wrote: post #9
jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

Public school education is poor in part because it’s darn near impossible to fire bad teachers though. And I don’t see how unions would improve housing affordability. I’m not against unions per se, particularly for positions which are not as lavishly compensated as a typical white collar FAANG employee. I’m merely pointing out that you need to pick better examples. Otherwise you just undermine your own argument.

> impossible to fire bad teachers though.

It's impossible to fire bad teachers (it really isn't, btw, at least not in Texas) because there are no teachers because teachers wages are pathologically low because every education department in the country is underfunded.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#33

Post by komali2 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #31
jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

I suspect most people here are highly educated in sought-after, high-paying jobs. There is a valid point that the net benefits of unions in such cases are low. Workers unions were created by and for factory workers, miners, etc. People who had zero leverage individually. In addition, we might be a more individualistic and competive crowd who think they are better than average and thus better off bargaining for themse…

> People who had zero leverage individually.

This is interesting to say considering the record amounts of layoffs we've had across the tech sector of these "high leverage individuals" in the thousands the last few quarters.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#34

Post by mytailorisrich »

Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

If it made no difference why would employees bother?

It does make a negative difference for employers with potentially higher costs and lower flexibility over time.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#35

Post by komali2 »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #28
jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

> I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. I had the displeasure of working with union labor in the US, they would come in at 7 (who does that) and leave at 4 on the dot. Then worked with non-union labor: cheaper, worked as much as possible per day, got the job done faster. Money-wise it was less than union labor. Now tell me how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff…

> how is good for me, as a company that needs stuff done, to use union workers?

For the company, it's very good, because unionization, or better yet, being a co-op, means your company will be more likely to be profitable in the long term.

But you are correct that in these situations, your employees are more difficult to exploit for longer hours, harsher conditions, and worse pay. So yes, if you're trying to be a major shareholder-owner, unions may hurt your individual bottom line, even if they benefit the corporation as a whole.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#36

Post by mytailorisrich »

komali2 wrote: post #33
mytailorisrich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect most people here are highly educated in sought-after, high-paying jobs. There is a valid point that the net benefits of unions in such cases are low. Workers unions were created by and for factory workers, miners, etc. People who had zero leverage individually. In addition, we might be a more individualistic and competive crowd who think they are better than average and thus better off bargaining for themse…

> People who had zero leverage individually. This is interesting to say considering the record amounts of layoffs we've had across the tech sector of these "high leverage individuals" in the thousands the last few quarters.

Layoffs are not a good example when discussing highly paid jobs with plenty of perks.

In a historical perspective I really mean being squeezed to the limit with no possibility of complaining or of "just moving somewhere else".

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#37

Post by thequux »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

I think unions are great! I'm even a member of one, and have been known to encourage everybody else around me to unionize. Notably, though, I love in Belgium.

The American implementation of unions, on the other hand, is not great. While in the US, I've run into rules like not being allowed to plug something in because only union electricians are allowed to do that, and that's just one example among many. Police unions and teacher's unions are mostly known for making bad employees unfirable outside of egregious circumstances, and teacher's unions in particular don't seem to have improved pay or working conditions much.

I have no idea where the difference comes from, but for people who have only seen and interacted with the American system, I don't blame them for not liking unions

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#38

Post by dragonwriter »

jollofricepeas wrote: post #7

I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining. The fact that corporations and billionaires are so anti-union and engage in regular conduct like this demonstrates that unions are pro-worker and ideal for the balance needed in the US and across the globe. Balance is key between workers and owners. Without it we are left with growing wealth inequality such as… - ridiculous housing pr…

> I don’t understand how so many HNers are anti-union and anti-collective bargaining.

HN is full of the aspirational haut bourgeois, of course they want the proletariat maximally exploitable.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#39

Post by sebtron »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #34
Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

If it made no difference why would employees bother? It does make a negative difference for employers with potentially higher costs and lower flexibility over time.

It makes a positive difference for the employees. You seem to imply that this is correlated to a negative difference for the employer, which is completely wrong.

Re: U.S. Rules Apple Illegally Interrogated Staff and Confiscated Union Flyers

#40

Post by Stranger43 »

nicce wrote: post #24
Stranger43 wrote: post #22

I wonder why US companies keep pulling stunts like this despite the data showing little negative impact of unionization to overall productivity nor company survival. It looks to be a purely dogmatic ego trip where somehow blind loyalty is demanded even when it's not actually necessary.

If it saves even a little money, it will happen.

Yep but that's again a dogmatic view as there is hints that anti-unionization measures are the kind of cost cutting that kills companies rather then the kind that makes them huge successes.
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