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MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#781

Post by SergeAx »

jacklbk wrote: post #518
sensanaty wrote: post #415

The western idea of DEI has always puzzled me ever since I first came across it (or at least the D portion of DEI, which in my mind is the most important one). I'm a Serb by blood and grew up in and have lived in Indonesia for the majority of my life, and I went to an international school with kids from quite literally every single corner of the earth, many of them being some exotic mix of various ethnicities. Despit…

As an Asian, the DEI idea and how it was executed puzzled me as well. Apple's first VP of diversity said [1]: > “Diversity is the human experience. I get a little bit frustrated when diversity or the term diversity is tagged to the people of color, or the women, or the LGBT.” > “there can be 12 white, blue-eyed, blonde men in a room and they’re going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life e…

The point of DEI is to have the widest possible distribution of life experience among the group. Of course 12 white, blue-eyed, blonde men would have different life paths, but if you project them on 2D graph and draw a circle around them, then the distance to the point of white blue-eyed woman would be about 5 diameters of that circle, and to the point of black transgender person - about 15 diameters.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#782

Post by Dylan16807 »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #779
Dylan16807 wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are the options, yes. Or a mixture. Older choices affect newer choices, and consistent choices become culture. Once upon a time, stock chart makers made an arbitrary choice influenced by older choices that had become culture. Those older choices being a general association with fortune, and a specific association with loss of money. (With intermediate steps, I think, but I'm being brief.) And those associations…

So now ui choices in different countries is because of deep cultural meaning, but they could be arbitrary, but that doesn't mean it's random and now the arbitrary choice is now the culture? Seems like circular logic to rationalize arbitrary choices made anonymously.

You have to analyze it on a case by case basis. It only sounds silly if you try to generalize everything into a single rule.

Different choices have different levels of cultural depth. Often the depth is zero. But it varies.

And culture is created by arbitrary decisions coalescing into guidelines. If it's not coalescing, then it's not culture. You have to look at the big picture to tell if something is culture or not.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#783

Post by vigori »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #520
naasking wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, Dawkins has in more recent years found himself opposing identity politics as they seek to change language usage and perceptions of gender. Correction: Dawkins doesn't care one whit about gender, and he has literally said so. He only cares when people cross into talking about sex, make incorrect claims about the nature of sex (spectrums and such), conflate sex with gender, and make unscientific claims abo…

What claims is he making specifically? > the nature of sex (spectrums and such) Sex shows itself to be a spectrum pretty often. > unscientific claims about being able to change one's sex Phenotype or genotype? They don't always match even without any medical intervention, and a change in hormones can drastically change phenotype.

[flagged]

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#784

Post by sanity »

SergeAx wrote: post #781
jacklbk wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Asian, the DEI idea and how it was executed puzzled me as well. Apple's first VP of diversity said [1]: > “Diversity is the human experience. I get a little bit frustrated when diversity or the term diversity is tagged to the people of color, or the women, or the LGBT.” > “there can be 12 white, blue-eyed, blonde men in a room and they’re going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life e…

The point of DEI is to have the widest possible distribution of life experience among the group. Of course 12 white, blue-eyed, blonde men would have different life paths, but if you project them on 2D graph and draw a circle around them, then the distance to the point of white blue-eyed woman would be about 5 diameters of that circle, and to the point of black transgender person - about 15 diameters.

The most meaningful and useful diversity would be that of social class, and yet that's the one kind of diversity the DEI bureaucracy isn't interested in diversifying.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#785

Post by ric2b »

pelorat wrote: post #22
selfmodruntime wrote: post #8

The American focus on race is a bit insane to outsiders. Putting such a big focus on race in university applications is just weird. Even worse, having top universities openly discriminate against people based on their race or heritage with affirmative action or similar policies, all in the name of equality, is unbelievable to Europeans like me. What the hell is wrong with the US if a person has a worse chance to be a…

I'm European too and I can assure you that non-white people are discriminated at the admission stage to top European universities. Not via race, but via name. It's well known that universities and landlords reject people because they have a Muslim sounding name. We have DEI in Europe too, but here it's increasingly codified into law.

In Portugal you get into university strictly based on your test scores and school grades, the university doesn't get to "pick" who it accepts.

Which countries are you referring to?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#786

Post by CyberDildonics »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #782
CyberDildonics wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So now ui choices in different countries is because of deep cultural meaning, but they could be arbitrary, but that doesn't mean it's random and now the arbitrary choice is now the culture? Seems like circular logic to rationalize arbitrary choices made anonymously.

You have to analyze it on a case by case basis. It only sounds silly if you try to generalize everything into a single rule. Different choices have different levels of cultural depth. Often the depth is zero. But it varies. And culture is created by arbitrary decisions coalescing into guidelines. If it's not coalescing, then it's not culture. You have to look at the big picture to tell if something is culture or not.

The big picture is that people stop when the traffic light turns red.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#787

Post by cellularmitosis »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #703
tharne wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of things have "said purpose" and the "real purpose" because of which such absolutely kafkaesque things survive in organizations. I remember sitting in conference room once and between meetings we started discussing the MBA degree and how you often needed one to move up at big companies. I mused that I didn't understand why this was so important since an MBA program didn't teach you much that you couldn't lea…

> proof you can spend a lot of time and effort completing bullshit assignments on time without too much heel-dragging or back talk. You don't need an MBA for that, a highschool GPA would be enough proof.

Not really the same. High school is typically prodded to completion by parents. MBA degrees are a better indicator of voluntary involvement.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#788

Post by dang »

KorematsuFredt wrote: post #587

[flagged]

Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40271871.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#789

Post by Dylan16807 »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #786
Dylan16807 wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to analyze it on a case by case basis. It only sounds silly if you try to generalize everything into a single rule. Different choices have different levels of cultural depth. Often the depth is zero. But it varies. And culture is created by arbitrary decisions coalescing into guidelines. If it's not coalescing, then it's not culture. You have to look at the big picture to tell if something is culture or not.

The big picture is that people stop when the traffic light turns red.

...so you are suggesting that one situation where colors match invalidates situations where colors are different.

You're implying that if red's meaning in one situation is the same, then red's other meanings in other situations must be the same.

Okay I guess. I don't know why you would think that, but I don't have much hope of convincing you otherwise.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#790

Post by CyberDildonics »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #789
CyberDildonics wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big picture is that people stop when the traffic light turns red.

...so you are suggesting that one situation where colors match invalidates situations where colors are different. You're implying that if red's meaning in one situation is the same, then red's other meanings in other situations must be the same. Okay I guess. I don't know why you would think that, but I don't have much hope of convincing you otherwise.

If it's all chosen because colors are deeply cultural then they would be the same. If important stuff is all different and arbitrary then it's not cultural.
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