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Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

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Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#851
post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After rt.com et al were blocked in the EU they also kept working for a few more week/months before I had to use a mirror/VPN to read the new paper of "the enemy". Side note: I though being able to read the news of the enemy was testimony to the moral high ground of a "modern free and democratic society". No more moral high ground if you are trying to shape the perception of the public with censorship.

I personally don't support blocking Al Jazeera. It's not that I'm a fan of them or any news station operated under a dictatorship without free press. It's clear that Al Jazeera acts as the propaganda wing of the Qatari government, and Qatar, being one of the main sponsors of Hamas, uses it to effectively spread Hamas propaganda. However, the real question is what does blocking them achieve. Does it stop their influen…

The sponsoring of Hamas by Qatar has happened with approval from Netanyahu. Until October 7th of course. And the reason that Hamas headquarters are in Doha, is because the US government requested that in 2011.

See e.g. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-fu...

or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_support_for_Hamas

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RT is not truth though. When a country is fighting for its very survival against a genocidal foe, I'm not about to start clutching my pearls that they've banned their genocidal foe's propaganda. Seems reasonable to me.

It's no worse than CNNs take on iraq and weapons of mass destruction, or (to go to the ru-ukr war), all the "putin has 3 days of supplies left" articles from 2022, 2023 and this year. You just prefer your own propaganda.

I don't think that "putin has 3 days of supplies left" propaganda is just as bad as the kind of genocidal propaganda pumped out by the Russian media, no, sorry.

Not all propaganda is born equal. Antisemitic propaganda pumped out by the Nazis in WW2 was absolutely worse than "keep calm and carry on" propaganda pumped out by the Brits during WW2. Hope that helps.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#853
post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli here - I just checked and I can still access the site in both English and Arabic. My guess is you won’t actually see the site being blocked.

After rt.com et al were blocked in the EU they also kept working for a few more week/months before I had to use a mirror/VPN to read the new paper of "the enemy". Side note: I though being able to read the news of the enemy was testimony to the moral high ground of a "modern free and democratic society". No more moral high ground if you are trying to shape the perception of the public with censorship.

> I though being able to read the news of the enemy was testimony to the moral high ground of a "modern free and democratic society".

Sure, if you believe your own (or more accurately: most liberal democracies') propaganda. But it really depends on how invested that enemy is in convincing your citizens to side with it. It turns out that "freedom of speech" ultimately is a losing strategy against an enemy that's excellent at abusing speech (which is another way of saying they have a good understanding of psychology, rhetorics and deception).

The successful way to engage with propaganda is not to let it sit alongside reality[0] but to contextualize it with reality. A widely known example in US news coverage for the former is showing "both sides of the debate" on issues like global warming or evolution: merely giving it an equal weight gives it equal presence in public perception and legitimizes it. Contextualizing means being explicit about which side you agree with and explaining why the given argument by the other side is wrong.

Of course the problem with effective propaganda is that it's not simply misinformation which can be contrasted and dissected easily but disinformation that not only shields itself against analysis but actively disrupts any attempt at analysis. Russian propaganda legitimizing the invasion of Ukraine for example (and this isn't new, this is literally a continuation of Soviet Union psychological warfare) used multiple mutually contradictory conflicting narratives which effectively drown out any other narrative by not only giving a manufactured alternative equal weight but giving equal weight to multiple alternatives, like a DDoS attack on information.

[0]: Of course we can debate what "reality" means but no matter the overarching narrative or the individual justifications, it's nearly impossible to avoid agreeing on things like "Russia sent ground troops in the direction of Kyiv within Ukranian borders" even if you might have different explanations of why that happened or what the intention behind that was or whether it constitutes a military attack.

Of course the irony is that in this case the side most heavily relying on disinformation seems to be Israel given its various contradictory official claims on social media. But arguably their application of it is nowhere near as effective. It's also worth mentioning that not only did the EU kick out Russian state-owned media but Russian television is also heavily censored and legal access to foreign news sources very limited. So the answer to "Who's engaging in censorship?" in this case seems to be "Everyone, to varying degrees". That implies this has never been a meaningful moral distinction, no matter what bleeding heart liberals and free speech libertarians may claim.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#854
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it any less worse that 170+ journalists were killed among the 30,000+ civilians? And no, it's unlikely these are journalists who picked up a gun - the IDF is dropping up to 2,000 Lbs bombs, and that's possibly how many are killed; however there have been many reports of journalists homes being targeted in direct strikes, at least one journalist I heard who's wife and children/whole family were killed but he was…

> Isn't it any less worse that 170+ journalists were killed among the 30,000+ civilians? Yes. One is a clear cut war crime, the other is not. (Or at least not in and of itself. There are of course factors that could make those civilian deaths be a war crime, but it depends on the circumstances.) (To be clear, what i am saying is that intentionally targeting journalists (who have not picked up a gun and joined the fig…

Israel has a history of intentionally targeting journalists (such as the American-Palestinian journalist Shireen Abu Akleh, who was killed by Israeli snipers, despite being very clearly identified as a journalist).

It's also the case that more generally, Israel's practice of dropping 2000-pound bombs on civilian areas is a war crime. Any targeting of civilian areas has to weigh the military gain against the damage to civilians, and Israel is not doing that. It has emerged that Israel is knowingly targeting buildings where it knows hundreds of civilians will die, just to kill one individual who is suspected of being associated in some way with Hamas. Israel specifically targets suspected Hamas associates when they're at home. These people are identified based on a pattern of behavior and things like cell-phone data, without Israel even knowing whether they really are combatants.[0] In this conflict, Israel has completely taken the gloves off and quite obviously does not care about civilian casualties.

0. https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-cal...

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no worse than CNNs take on iraq and weapons of mass destruction, or (to go to the ru-ukr war), all the "putin has 3 days of supplies left" articles from 2022, 2023 and this year. You just prefer your own propaganda.

I don't think that "putin has 3 days of supplies left" propaganda is just as bad as the kind of genocidal propaganda pumped out by the Russian media, no, sorry. Not all propaganda is born equal. Antisemitic propaganda pumped out by the Nazis in WW2 was absolutely worse than "keep calm and carry on" propaganda pumped out by the Brits during WW2. Hope that helps.

But if you truly believe that putin is losing due to propaganda, you'll go and fight a war you believe you'll win... and then die, because the media lied to you. How is this good for you?

I mean sure... you, as an outside observer want more "other" people to die for a cause you believe in, but for an individual it's better to know the truth and decide according to that, than to be mislead by lies and propaganda.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#856
post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but Russia is my enemy, and should be the enemy of everyone who cares about a liberal world order based on law, not might. And in the case of RT, they had left even the pretence of journalism a long time ago. But I agree with those that say we should not have banned them. When we try to defend our liberal world order with censorship, we are certainly throwing out the baby with the bath water.

> When we try to defend our liberal world order with censorship, we are certainly throwing out the baby with the bath water. I agree with that - freedom of speech is one of the few things I think worth fighting for. We cannot fight for it while rejecting it.

Freedom of speech is a grey area, though.

How long has it been since all had equal access to speech? The mostly-literate + printing press era?

Do we still have free speech if I can turn an algorithmic knob that causes 10% fewer people to see your opinion than those arguing against you?

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#857
post #799
post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but Russia is my enemy, and should be the enemy of everyone who cares about a liberal world order based on law, not might. And in the case of RT, they had left even the pretence of journalism a long time ago. But I agree with those that say we should not have banned them. When we try to defend our liberal world order with censorship, we are certainly throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Glad you come to that conclusion. > And in the case of RT, they had left even the pretence of journalism a long time ago. What is RT doing that is not found in FOX, NBC, CNews.fr, Hayom? > liberal world order based on law, not might. This is a facade. The talking point the NATO/US/west uses, while they violate every such rule when they see fit. You may be interested in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer

> What is RT doing that is not found in FOX, NBC, CNews.fr, Hayom?

Monopolizing discourse.

How many independent news channels are there inside Russia today?

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#858
post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that RT is an organisation that is not interested in the truth, but is set up purely to disrupt and disturb, then a government can reasonably want to prevent its operation. Adding plausible noise to information causes people to have to do much more work to discern between what is true and what is not, time that many people do not have. A reluctance to ban a bad-faith organisation is good: a moral socie…

I think if you ask the average conservative voter, they would argue the New York Times is a bad faith organisation, uninterested in the truth if it contradicts its narrative, and trying to disrupt and divide. That's why the state should be nowhere near any power to curb political speech. If you would like to shut down a news outlet you don't like, ask yourself if you would like Trump to have that same power.

I guess this is what deliberation and debate is all about. I mean, a lot of people thought Trump shouldn't be President at all, but he was.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#859

What is exactly wrong with shutting down someone who not just lies (nothing unique there lol) but systematically supports information war against your country?

Al Jazeera is not engaged in an "information war" against Israel. Al Jazeera is the major independent media organization operating in Gaza, and one of the main sources of accurate information about the conflict. That's what angers the Israeli government.

Can you show me at least 1 al jazeera article in arabic exposing and condemning oct 7?

And at least 2 posts in arabic exposing some of hamas lies or expressing empathy and support to Israel?

Even a single post calling hamas terrorists (or at least some of their actions a terrorist attack) would suffice to convince me.

Re: Israel shuts down local Al Jazeera offices

#860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly every democratic country has previously or is currently censoring the media in some ways, including the US[1] and EU[2]. Single factor analysis is one of the worst kinds of analysis. If we only consider this one factor, then there is basically no country that is not like Apartheid South Africa. Apartheid South Africa was not exceptional or notable because it did what nearly every other country has or is curren…

I am not sure how many people were surveyed and what were the questions in these. I am reminded of this from Yes, Prime Minister https://youtu.be/ahgjEjJkZks?si=_6nlxJ1okysqH07U

A better way to engage than to allude to some TV series is to rather look for and present any information that suggests this is not the case, that suggests that there is in fact wide spread opposition to the war in Gaza and widespread support for an independent Palestinian state.

Before the October 7, only 35% of Israelis (41% Arab and 32% Jewish) thought a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to coexist peacefully with each other [1]. We have to engage with reality here, not with TV tropes.

[1]: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/09/26/israelis-...

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