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MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#571

Post by jack_riminton »

Gimpei wrote: post #431
GIFtheory wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first reaction to this news was, “fine, sounds like a silly requirement.” However, being a PhD graduate from a minority background, I really have to thank my advisor for the undergraduate outreach work he did, without which there is realistically a negligible chance I would have ended up with a PhD and a great research career. I don’t know what motivated him to do this work, but from a purely pragmatic perspective…

I think this is a good point. I wonder how useful diversity statements are for accomplishing this task. It just seems like cheap talk to me. More useful would be to reward people in tenure review for outreach to minorities. I’m from a minority, just not one that is recognized as such in the convoluted system that is racial politics in the US (I am of Iraqi descent). But if I were in the shoes of someone who should be…

Such is the nature of bureaucracies, whatever is easy to measure will become the measure

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#572

Post by mordae »

jacklbk wrote: post #518
sensanaty wrote: post #415

The western idea of DEI has always puzzled me ever since I first came across it (or at least the D portion of DEI, which in my mind is the most important one). I'm a Serb by blood and grew up in and have lived in Indonesia for the majority of my life, and I went to an international school with kids from quite literally every single corner of the earth, many of them being some exotic mix of various ethnicities. Despit…

As an Asian, the DEI idea and how it was executed puzzled me as well. Apple's first VP of diversity said [1]: > “Diversity is the human experience. I get a little bit frustrated when diversity or the term diversity is tagged to the people of color, or the women, or the LGBT.” > “there can be 12 white, blue-eyed, blonde men in a room and they’re going to be diverse too because they’re going to bring a different life e…

From my personal experience as a central European male, they would be missing women and their outputs would have predictable and easily rectified mistakes. Unless their customer base is 90% male and they are OK with that.

And it's exactly that the experience shapes us. In the West, gender roles are still very pronounced, shaping our experiences in certain ways. Males are taught to go for wins, females for maintainability for one.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#573

Post by kristopolous »

juunpp wrote: post #443
xyst wrote: post #337

What the hell is a “DEI” statement anyways? The site is a bit light on what this means, only a bunch of satirical and sarcastic posts. Almost feels like it was generated by LLM. Is it something like this? “I helped a group of first generation, low income students apply to college and obtain $50,000 in grants” Not sure what’s wrong with this…

[flagged]

have any citations or specific examples?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#574

Post by fsckboy »

justinclift wrote: post #558
JSavageOne wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asians aren't counted as "diversity" either. This is why they're referred to as "an inconvenient minority" in the context of DEI.

For that, does "asians" mean people from the middle of asia (ie middle east), or people from south east asia (ie oriental)? Asking because the term has different meanings in say the UK (asian -> from middle east) vs Australia (asian -> from south east asia).

>people from south east asia (ie oriental)

it is actually more common from the European and Middle Eastern context to call the (Turkish and Levantine and Arabian) Middle East "oriental"; in Israel, "oriental food" is hummus and felafel; the Orient Express train went to Istanbul. East Asian is the term for ... east Asians and of course the SE Asians you mentioned, and South Asian is the term for "India+Pakistan+" people. Central Asian is the "the -stans" and Mongolia and parts of Russia.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#575

Post by lukan »

sensanaty wrote: post #415

The western idea of DEI has always puzzled me ever since I first came across it (or at least the D portion of DEI, which in my mind is the most important one). I'm a Serb by blood and grew up in and have lived in Indonesia for the majority of my life, and I went to an international school with kids from quite literally every single corner of the earth, many of them being some exotic mix of various ethnicities. Despit…

"This is, of course, understandable as an initial reaction, but my problem is that all the DEI shenanigans never get past that initial surface-level nonsense"

It is literally all only about the surface-level - the surface of the body, the skin color. Defining diversity by this single trait is the opposite of diversity in my opinion, which your story shows quite well.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#576

Post by zzo38computer »

jiggawatts wrote: post #336
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> seemed very "1984" to me In Australia, there was a recent introduction of "Acknowledgement of Country" at both the federal and state government level. Universities and other large institutions are also "doing their part". For example, in video call meetings with more than 'n' people, a manager will read out a statement for a minute at the start of the call acknowledging the "traditional custodians of the land upon…

They are valid points; they do bad things with "diversity". I have seen such acknowledgements in Canada too sometimes, although I don't know if it is as bad as you describe there, because I do not know the details.

Better would be to actually avoid damaging the indigenous people and avoid damaging the land. What was done in the past is done, but you could avoid doing it again.

Saying stuff (especially stuff that doesn't even have proper good points and doesn't even help anything) is not a substitute for actually doing actually good things.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#577

Post by TMWNN »

avs733 wrote: post #389
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> but is there anyone that actually defends these DEI statements with a coherent argument hi! that would include me, and I would ask you to think about the following question at the moment: You are wondering if a widely utilized, and VOCALLY critiqued practice is supported by anyone...then why would it be continued to be practiced. Generally what I have found is there are two sides to this - one of which is just tryi…

>They saw it as a non issue, and then brought up several tropes about Black people in particular - including trouble being on time, holding still, following instructions and how that could negatively impact their research.

In 2020 the Smithsonian—The Smithsonian—said that individualism, the nuclear family, the scientific method, working hard, and planning for the future are aspects of "white culture". Years later I still can't believe it. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/artic...>

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#578

Post by kristopolous »

steve_taylor wrote: post #379

It's quite telling that the MIT president was too scared to announce this despite only 1 in 20 faculty supporting DEI statements.

Quoting: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/mit-scraps-diversity-state...

The decision was made by MIT president Sally Kornbluth, with support from the school’s provost and six academic deans, a spokesperson told National Review on Sunday afternoon.

“My goals are to tap into the full scope of human talent, to bring the very best to MIT, and to make sure they thrive once here,” Kornbluth said in a statement provided to NR. “We can build an inclusive environment in many ways, but compelled statements impinge on freedom of expression, and they don’t work.”

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#579

Post by [deleted] »

transcriptase wrote: post #307
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #287

I never understood the american obsession with race (well, and sexuality). I live in a small EU country on the edge of the balkans... what the hell should I write if I wanted to get hired? I'm white... everyone here is white... but just by living here, I might have a more "diverse" worldview (compared to a white american is massachussets, with enouh knowledge and money to attend MIT) than someone of a different race…

Which sort of goes hand in hand with the idea of white privilege. If I grow up dirt poor, with uneducated parents, in a rural dirt poor region where there wasn’t anyone except other white people in a 100 mile radius for me to be favoured over, apparently I’ve still benefited from some sort of systemic or inherent bias in favour of myself on the basis of race. Which apparently needs to be corrected and puts me at a di…

[deleted]

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#580

Post by kmeisthax »

Aurornis wrote: post #283
gruez wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but is there anyone that actually defends these DEI statements with a coherent argument, or can you point me to one online There was a recent debate on this[1] and even the debater for the pro DEI statement side (that they could find) admitted that DEI statements that were just ideological pledges were wrong, and he was only in favor of statements about concrete things you did to advance the DEI agenda (eg. "I did a…

I’ve heard this same argument for DEI statements every time the topic has been debated: They sidestep arguments about DEI statements and instead retreat to safer arguments about how advancing DEI is a good thing. On one hand, I get it. Arguing for DEI in an abstract sense is much easier than arguing for specific interventions. On the other hand, this is the textbook example of a Motte-and-bailey fallacy, where the de…

I suspect you could get away with speaking out publicly on this if you said something like "DEI statements aren't actually advancing DEI" first. You need to break the link between the statements and the goal first, so that you don't look like you're attacking the goal.
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