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MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

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Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#501

Post by skissane »

jimbokun wrote: post #495
skissane wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone still using the term "woke" in a serious discussion at this point is using a thought terminating cliche. In December 2020, New Republic published an essay by the African-American Marxist Adolph Reed Jr (professor emeritus of political science at the University of Pennsylvania), entitled "Beyond the Great Awokening: Reassessing the legacies of past black organizing" [0] in which he criticises "the Woke". Now,…

> I myself tend to avoid invoking the word, because I find it derails discussions from whatever the substantive topic was, into debating what that word means and the appropriateness of using it. This is the point I was trying to make.

I agree with you that it is best avoided whenever possible.

However, I think the other points I made, that (a) some invocations of it are legitimate, and (b) it serves a useful purpose in labelling a real phenomenon, for which we don't have any widely accepted alternative label – still stand.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#502

Post by thewanderer1983 »

lazide wrote: post #310
dgfitz wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you were simply evaluated against your noggin and not your skin? Edit: what are the arguments against this?

they very well might have been evaluated based entirely on their abilities alone. A toxic element of DEI is that now they have to always wonder (as does everyone else) if it was done because of their skin color/gender/race, regardless of what their mentor says. Because it very well may be true as well.

Just like the justice system. People should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. DEI and more broadly CRT are toxic because minorities, like all humans have faults and these ideas promote minorities to assume discrimination instead of faults. Therefore not helping these individuals improve their faults. This also promotes division and hatred in society. Overall net negative.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#503

Post by kanbara »

jiggawatts wrote: post #336
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #81

In the spirit of trying to learn something from the community: while I can certainly understand the rationale and goals behind DEI programs (many of which I agree with, others not), I honestly can't understand these "DEI statements" at all. They always seemed very "1984" to me, and almost designed to engender resentment in a way that would ultimately backfire. So perhaps I'm in a like-minded echo chamber, but is ther…

> seemed very "1984" to me In Australia, there was a recent introduction of "Acknowledgement of Country" at both the federal and state government level. Universities and other large institutions are also "doing their part". For example, in video call meetings with more than 'n' people, a manager will read out a statement for a minute at the start of the call acknowledging the "traditional custodians of the land upon…

it’s great that you as a person of european descent can be annoyed that people in the office have to make statements about traditional ownership of the land. You know how aboriginal australians live, and yet you think that changing attitudes towards the past—and reason why certain groups are disadvantaged—doesn’t help?

it’s not a “sin” — it was genocide over land that did not belong to the Crown. it’s a good thing that immigrants also have to acknowledge australian culture and heritage, as well.

as far as the white-looking aboriginal is concerned, we’re just not gonna open that door.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#504

Post by kanbara »

CyberDildonics wrote: post #426
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UI colors can have different meanings in different cultures. Suppose you don't care anything for all of this political noise and you just want to make money. Do you want to use the same colors on your website in the countries where red implies danger as the ones where red implies prosperity and vitality? If it will be the same for everyone, might knowing how some large subset of the viewers will interpret it change w…

There is no evidence for what you are saying.

red has pretty strong connotations in some east asian cultures.

just like how 13 is taboo, 4 and 7 can be taboo. these things do matter sometimes. respect matters.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#505

Post by kanbara »

rayiner wrote: post #241
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to optimizing a sorting algorithm for some hardware, it probably doesn't matter. Now suppose you're making a user interface design choice. It would be good to have someone who knows how users from a different subculture would interpret it. But things like that often have more to do with culture/geography than race. Someone from Mississippi will have a much different perspective than someone from Massach…

Is there evidence that Americans of different ethnicities interpret user interface features differently? If not, isn’t it concerning that in the year 2024 we casually assume that these sorts of differences exist? Isn’t that an example of DEI thinking accentuating the notion of differences? It seems like a new take on this: https://youtu.be/E8PBrhFN35c?si=90DSnwgHubAvJwr8

japanese ui is often more dense and information rich. there are left to right and right to left cultures. tonnes of difference between cultures and understand of the world.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#506

Post by CyberDildonics »

kanbara wrote: post #504
CyberDildonics wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence for what you are saying.

red has pretty strong connotations in some east asian cultures. just like how 13 is taboo, 4 and 7 can be taboo. these things do matter sometimes. respect matters.

Show me software that's bright red due and doesn't use 4 and 7 due to 'culture'.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#508

Post by Dylan16807 »

jimbokun wrote: post #367
rebeccaskinner wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? As a non-white immigrant, I’m deeply suspicious of the notion that a team with me on it is in any way different than a team without me on it based on my skin color or ethnicity. Perhaps, but a team that would not have hired you because of your skin color or ethnicity would also be a worse team since they would not be willing or able to hire the best candidates. > As soon as you make it acceptable to say that p…

> I can't speak to the experience of being a non-white immigrant, but I've had other forms of this experience. It sucks to be in a job interview where you have a great skill set that matches the role and a lot of relevant experience, but it's clear that the only thing the recruiter cares about is that you could add gender diversity to a team. But this is the dominant strain of DEI thinking today, and why it's seeing…

> The over riding DEI principle is that every profession, every organization, every role, must somehow have exactly the demographic breakdown of the society as a whole.

No it's not. That's a dumb strawman. "The over riding DEI principle" is not some guy that doesn't understand statistical variance, and doesn't accept any reason at all for fields to differ.

But we should have a starting position of being extremely skeptical of any big group that has a significantly different breakdown, especially if it's different in the specific ways that fit common discrimination.

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#509

Post by jasonm23 »

kelipso wrote: post #480
WalterBright wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

STEM is something you gotta have some substantial internal motivation to do, such as doing it for a hobby. The kind of work I enjoy, you gotta really like it or it isn't going to work out for you. For example, I was taking machines apart when I was 7 trying to figure out how they worked. I'd break open resistors to see what was inside - just baffling grey dust. Eventually I took bicycles apart, then engines, then who…

Maybe decades ago when college students based their choice of majors on feelings or whatever that might have been true. Nowadays college students are much more practical. An obvious example is the rise in CS majors in the last decade. The notion of substantial motivation or hobby to go into STEM is absolutely ridiculous.

To go into a subject, with no foundation, no motivation and no interest. How is this a set up for success?

I mean, sure, people can go into any subject, but... if they're to succeed?

Re: MIT abandons requirement of DEI statements for hiring and promotions

#510

Post by BaronVonSteuben »

jhardy54 wrote: post #498
beerandt wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imo it's very different bc the ideology pledge itself is mostly distracting from the real purpose of the dei statement (again imo), which is to provide a way to select employees based on race, etc, without it being the explicit reason. A better comparison would be if instead of an anti-theft pledge, there were a ten-commandments plus beatitudes test/ statement, without referencing the source religion. Maybe call it a…

> diversity applicants Friendly nudge that this isn’t a meaningful term. Once you start noticing people saying things like “our hiring pool is 60% diversity” it’s hard to unsee.

I don't agree. "Diversity" has a commonly accepted meaning which in the US at least, means everything except white men. Female or non-white are "diversity." A great example are the statements and articles from 2020 when Biden announced the most diverse ever White House Communications Team which was 100% female. Biden talked about how critical diversity was and bragged about this 100% female communications team. All the articles I read about it had things like "most diverse White House Communications Team in history" to describe it. At least from a gender perspective, I don't see how they could make it more clear that diversity == women
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