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So You Want to be a Programmer

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Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#51

Post by whiskyant »

siavosh wrote: post #2

I too felt a lot of readers had the wrong reaction and mis-interpreted Jeff Attwood's original post. I was an undergrad in the tech bubble a decade ago. CS was the most in demand and popular major on campus. When the bubble burst, a lot of my former classmates abandoned programming. I was not surprised. A lot of them were CS majors because that's where the money/attention/parent pressure/sexiness was during the bubbl…

I was an undergrad in the tech bubble a decade ago. CS was the most in demand and popular major on campus.

It's funny, this again seems to be the case at a lot of universities today.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#54

Post by alanh »

tjmc wrote: post #40
andrewflnr wrote: post #35

Jeff wants a world where we programmers can make computers perfectly usable without understanding how they work. I don't think this will ever be the case. The abstraction will always leak a little, and people will benefit from having at least some idea of how computers and the programs that run on them work under the hood. Regardless, in the mean time I would prefer everyone to have as much technical competence as po…

If you've ever seen a 2 year old or, worse, a baby boomer playing with an iPad you'd realize we're basically there. At this point Jeff's car analogy is about right. Is it useful to know how your car and computer work under the hood? Yes. Is it necessary ? Increasingly less so.

I’m biased (I work here), and we have a way to go, but IFTTT.com is definitely a step in this direction, too.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#55

Post by tferris »

A long post, verbose and unclear in its message. Do not follow his advice.

About coding:

- Coding is an efficient way to represent processes or business processes

- Business processes are the fundament of any business

- 99% of businesses today are digital in their core or heavily support by systems

About passion:

- Most even do not know what their passion is anyway—so let at least all people try to get some success stories and basic experiences with code before they decide it's not their passion

- Creating and building is seen as always an satisfying activity—be it creating a cake, a wooden table or some piece of code—independent of your passion

- Coding can only be an instrument or a part or an building block in order to create something; code is as ubiquitous as reading, writing or math—it doesn't have to be your passion, it's just an instrument to your passion; coding equals not coding: a SAP, web, game coder or a Photoshop scripter do code but at the end of the day they have totally different jobs and passions: a passionate game coder would die when writing SAP code because his passion isn't to code rather to create games while a SAP coder's passion is to organize and represent business logic as efficient as possible. Both love to code because 1) creating is a satisfying activity and 2) coding allows to create a product of their passion (a game or enterprise system).

It's about understanding that any process can and must be automated with software/systems/code nowadays and coding is just a vehicle to your passion.

Not learning to code is not an option.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#56

Post by rapind »

astine wrote: post #20
agentultra wrote: post #9

He's still missing the point. If anything "learning to code," is just bad language to describe something more worthwhile: teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking. We don't teach mathematics to kids so that they will all become mathematicians and we certainly don't teach them literacy so that they will all become the next J.D. Salinger. They are just tools for solving other problems. "Lear…

"teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking" You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. There are a lot of other fields that teach that. Basic algorithmic knowledge is useful in daily life, but you won't necessarily gain that while "learning to code," and it's not necessarily more useful than anything else you might study. "how many other judges in technology patent cases will be…

Agreed. For all the talk of logic it seems like the root of disagreement is about a very basic logic problem.

Problem solving skills != programming skills. In fact most of my problem solving skills are from learning to solve math problems and not from learning to program.

* Not all problems are solved via programming.

* Not all problems that can be solved via programming, should be solved via programming.

* Not all problem solvers are programmers.

* There are many ways to learn how to solve problems. One does not need to become a programmer to do so.

I think programming is a pretty great skill to pickup in today's world. However I'm not ridiculous enough to suppose that the only way to succeed in solving problems is through code.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#57

Post by overgard »

pohl wrote: post #43
overgard wrote: post #39

This whole weird saga has led me to this thought: why are people so concerned with what /other/ people should learn? Why do you care? It seems like the subtext is that if they know the things we know, they'll think the things we think. If we can just get people to be programmers, they'll see the world the way we see it. Or so the thought goes.

A rising tide of literacy lifts all boats, that's why I care. I still don't get why Atwood does, though.

There's a big difference between literacy and knowing how to code.

Literacy means access to the sum total of the world's knowledge. That's huge. That gives you access to everything if you're willing to put in the effort. That's freedom.

"Code literacy" means knowing how to tell a computer to do something reliably and the associated lessons that come with that.

That's good, but it's not the same. One is the ability to gain new skills at will, the other is just another skill to master.

I say all this as a coder who thinks its important, I just think the hyperbole around "programming being the new literacy" to be overblown

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#58

Post by greggman »

agentultra wrote: post #9

He's still missing the point. If anything "learning to code," is just bad language to describe something more worthwhile: teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking. We don't teach mathematics to kids so that they will all become mathematicians and we certainly don't teach them literacy so that they will all become the next J.D. Salinger. They are just tools for solving other problems. "Lear…

I agree. Let's try substituting some other things.

"Don't visit a foreign country" "Don't learn a 2nd language" "Don't listen to any music but pop music" "Don't read anything but children's books"

You could argue that 99.99% of people don't need to visit a foreign country. But most people that do have their horizons broadened. Maybe they realize their home country is not as "special" as there local "we're AWESOME" propaganda suggests. Maybe they realize how lucky they are to live in a well to do country. Maybe they get a picture of how others live (better to aspire too or worse to be thankful for what they have)

99.99% of people don't need to learn a second language. They can get by just fine with just 1. But learning a second language opens up so much of the world. Often learning a foreign language leads to extended time in a foreign country which leads to exposure to new ways of looking at the world and learning what you thought was "common sense" is actually only your culture and not a universal truth.

Learning a little programming opens your eyes to how this digital world works. It opens your eyes that an iPhone or Android is really not magic, just millions of simple parts all working together. Learning a little programming can arguably make you less complacent with limitations of various OSes, Apps, websites, etc. and push for a better world.

It's not about becoming a programmer. It's about having at least a basic understanding of how the modern world works. "Don't learn to program" seems to me like "Don't learn Biology". "Don't learn History", "Don't learn Physics" All of those aren't needed by most people either but learning them gives you more tools to understand the world.

I think Jeff's problem is he really trying to say "You don't need to MASTER programming" and the rest of us are saying "You should learn at least a little programming" and so we're talking past each other?

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#59

Post by jwingy »

vibrunazo wrote: post #46

A) What Jeff thinks we're saying: "Everyone should be programmers so the world would be a better place" B) What Jeff thinks is the right: "Everyone should be technically literate for their own good" C) What we're actually saying: "Everyone should be technically literate for their own good" You can observe that B and C are the same. So we actually agree, but some haven't noticed it yet. Only because the sentence "lear…

Kinda ironic too when people are arguing about the importance of learning programming because it teaches logic...

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#60

Post by randomdata »

pohl wrote: post #43
overgard wrote: post #39

This whole weird saga has led me to this thought: why are people so concerned with what /other/ people should learn? Why do you care? It seems like the subtext is that if they know the things we know, they'll think the things we think. If we can just get people to be programmers, they'll see the world the way we see it. Or so the thought goes.

A rising tide of literacy lifts all boats, that's why I care. I still don't get why Atwood does, though.

Why programming?

The study of mechanics seems like it would have a much more profound impact on average people's lives. Often, it seems, I find myself hitting walls in the physical realm where someone with the right background would just build a simple machine to overcome the problem.

I would never discourage the pursuit of knowledge, I'm just not seeing why programming gets its very own pedestal. It seems no more important than many other subjects that are not commonly learned by people.

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