So You Want to be a Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#31

Post by danso » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:13 AM UTC

jhuni wrote: post #28

agentultra wrote: post #9

He's still missing the point. If anything "learning to code," is just bad language to describe something more worthwhile: teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking. We don't teach mathematics to kids so that they will all become mathematicians and we certainly don't teach them literacy so that they will all become the next J.D. Salinger. They are just tools for solving other problems. "Lear…

> He's still missing the point. If you read him carefully I think you will find that isn't the case. Much of a professional programmer's time is spent mindlessly debugging crapware, in other words, code plumbing. Plumbing is a separate speciality for good reason. In depth plumbing courses such as those at toiletacademy should not be required of all students. On the other hand, I certainly agree that everyone should b…

So what? Much of a professional writer's time is spent wrangling with arcane grammatical and thematic constructs which 99% of the literate populace forgot about after high school...but it's still important to spend years teaching people how to read or write.

Everyone (in middle America) gets through at least hih school algebra...but why is mathematical and logical thinking, common to programmers, so rare? Even in the sciences it's considered a specialty to be able to aggregate data and external information, or to delimit one's own data output in a way that's useful beyond a narrative paper.

I think it may just be the case that it's nigh impossible to gain these logical/abstract insights without the practical experience of simple coding. I've tried teaching many people the difference between "8" and (the literal value) 8...it never seems to stick until you write and run a simple piece of code to test it out.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#32

Post by mattmorgan » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:14 AM UTC

Intelligence/coding go hand in hand.

No matter how smart their arguments are, some coders in this "debate" unintentionally display the subtle insecurity that their special skill is coming to the masses and that fact will ultimately decrease their uniqueness, salary, and apparently...their self esteem.

If one does feel that twinge of jealousy or defensiveness, then perhaps the most progressive solution internally is to grow an identity beyond being just smart and unique and slamming less intelligent people when they try to get a nut in this World.

(Caveat: I'm as guilty as they come)

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#33

Post by slantyyz » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:15 AM UTC

koide wrote: post #10

siavosh wrote: post #2

I too felt a lot of readers had the wrong reaction and mis-interpreted Jeff Attwood's original post. I was an undergrad in the tech bubble a decade ago. CS was the most in demand and popular major on campus. When the bubble burst, a lot of my former classmates abandoned programming. I was not surprised. A lot of them were CS majors because that's where the money/attention/parent pressure/sexiness was during the bubbl…

I don't understand this. Doing a couple hours a week learning Javascript and you will now change careers? Or, inversely, learning Javascript on Codecademy will get you a lucrative job on frontend programming, if you are not talented? Yes, of course doing what you love and striving for excellence and doing your research on your own are all great admirable things everyone should do. But they are hard, and not at all at…

During the last bubble, the hot scam was for "private vocational schools" to advertise to recent grads (i.e., fine arts and social sciences majors) to develop tech skills to help them get a job.

The company I was at was looking for cheap labour and hired several of these people who paid a small fortune for a six month "intensive" course. Needless to say, they were all duds looking to cash in on a hot job market.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#34

Post by slantyyz » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:17 AM UTC

sray wrote: post #24

This ongoing "Learn to Code" discussion reminds me OWS. Ask ten different people what it stands for, and you'll get ten different answers. If you try and argue against any part of it, someone will tell you that you "just don't get it." In the end, all I get out of it is the impression that we "hackers" sure think highly of ourselves.

>> I get out of it is the impression that we "hackers" sure think highly of ourselves.

Is it that, or do we take ourselves (and our work) too seriously?

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#35

Post by andrewflnr » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:22 AM UTC

Jeff wants a world where we programmers can make computers perfectly usable without understanding how they work. I don't think this will ever be the case. The abstraction will always leak a little, and people will benefit from having at least some idea of how computers and the programs that run on them work under the hood.

Regardless, in the mean time I would prefer everyone to have as much technical competence as possible, for both our sakes.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#36

Post by koide » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:25 AM UTC

slantyyz wrote: post #33

koide wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. Doing a couple hours a week learning Javascript and you will now change careers? Or, inversely, learning Javascript on Codecademy will get you a lucrative job on frontend programming, if you are not talented? Yes, of course doing what you love and striving for excellence and doing your research on your own are all great admirable things everyone should do. But they are hard, and not at all at…

During the last bubble, the hot scam was for "private vocational schools" to advertise to recent grads (i.e., fine arts and social sciences majors) to develop tech skills to help them get a job. The company I was at was looking for cheap labour and hired several of these people who paid a small fortune for a six month "intensive" course. Needless to say, they were all duds looking to cash in on a hot job market.

At least the companies now will save the small fortune, they'll just point the duds to Codecademy/Udacity/Coursera.

People like the ones you mention will always exist, but they are not Codecademy's responsibility. It's even likely they would find a place where you get a relatively respected diploma instead of a certificate in PDF.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#37

Post by vibrunazo » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:26 AM UTC

leif wrote: post #22

I'm getting tired of people having opinions about what other people should learn. If you think you will like messing with computers, give it a shot. If you like it, maybe you'll work hard and get good. If not, you'll probably do something else. Just like any other profession. Everyone needs to relax and stop worrying about what other people are doing with their lives.

We're not worrying, it's just an advice. I think others should learn to code for their own good, not mine. It's the same reason I think they should learn science, politics... And how to cross the road without getting hit by cars. I strongly believe you should learn this things because it would make your own life much better.

If you don't wanna listen to the advice, then don't. We don't really care. If you rather not learn how to cross the road because it's not something you enjoy doing, it's you who is gonna get run over, not me.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#38

Post by rmATinnovafy » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:37 AM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #12

rmATinnovafy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As some who used to work on cars for a living, I can say that the analogy does not fit very well. Learning how to check your oil level, or even how to change a tire is more akin to learning how to install a new wi-fi dongle for your laptop, or how to install a new OS. Learning how to program the computer is akin to learning how to modify the drivetrain of the car. You modify the engine to make it perform better (vers…

It's just a poor analogy. The two have nothing in common what-so-ever. You do not simply modify your computer with code to make it perform better.

Yes, you do modify the code to make the computer run better, and to do things it originally couldn't do.

I do agree that the analogy is not a good one.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#39

Post by overgard » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:39 AM UTC

This whole weird saga has led me to this thought: why are people so concerned with what /other/ people should learn? Why do you care?

It seems like the subtext is that if they know the things we know, they'll think the things we think. If we can just get people to be programmers, they'll see the world the way we see it. Or so the thought goes.

Re: So You Want to be a Programmer

#40

Post by tjmc » Sat, May 26, 2012, 1:41 AM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #35

Jeff wants a world where we programmers can make computers perfectly usable without understanding how they work. I don't think this will ever be the case. The abstraction will always leak a little, and people will benefit from having at least some idea of how computers and the programs that run on them work under the hood. Regardless, in the mean time I would prefer everyone to have as much technical competence as po…

If you've ever seen a 2 year old or, worse, a baby boomer playing with an iPad you'd realize we're basically there. At this point Jeff's car analogy is about right. Is it useful to know how your car and computer work under the hood? Yes. Is it necessary? Increasingly less so.