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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#251

Post by brnt »

karmajunkie wrote: post #248
brnt wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hybrids get a bad rep. It makes for such a difference: knowing that you don't need to worry about that 1%.

The argument against hybrids that's always resonated with me is that you get the maintenance costs of a gasoline engine with the upfront costs of a battery. I've owned a Leaf and found it relatively trouble-free but never a hybrid. Am I just buying into FUD there?

Prius are pretty well known for being cheap to drive for a long while no?

Sure, they are always going to be more complex than a full electric but good gasoline cars are don't have any huge maintenance costs for a good long while.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#252

Post by pkulak »

mulmen wrote: post #191
pkulak wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, hybrids sometimes get to replace the transmission with EV bits, like Toyota's system. Imagine an engine and exhaust system; now multiply the complexity by 100 and you have a modern transmission. Toyota hybrids (and GM/Chrystler/Honda) replace all that with a single planetary gearset, or with Honda, one clutch. Other systems, think Volvo, pop the EV bits in the back of the car and replace where the drive shaft u…

Modern transmissions can’t be two orders of magnitude more complicated than a modern ICE. If they are then I need to get into transmission design. An automatic transmission is basically just a series of planetary gears anyway. I would expect the marginal complexity between an ICE transmission and a hybrid transmission to be within a multiple of 2, but closer to parity. They’re both extremely reliable but an EV transm…

I dunno, maybe 100x was an exaggeration, but not by much! Take a look at this transmission from 2007. They haven't gotten simpler. Lot's of cars are sporting 10-speeds these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission#/media/...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#253

Post by cogman10 »

WalterBright wrote: post #203

I remember a 60 Minutes segment some time back on batteries made out of saltwater and dirt. They would be ideal for grid scale batteries, because although the energy density of those batteries is low, that's irrelevant because very large batteries could be cheap and easy to make. The batteries don't have to be portable. This is what baffles me about Li batteries for grid use. Using high energy / weight is very costly…

> This is what baffles me about Li batteries for grid use

It's not super baffling when you realize the other properties of Li make it way better than pretty much anything currently on the market (the important part).

Li has amazing cycle life with a wide operating range. Li like LFP and LTO have insane cycle life. Pair that with the superior capacity and the fact that Li doesn't have problems like the memory effect and it quickly starts to become apparent why it dominates grid storage.

There's simply not been a better available rechargeable battery tech on the market. Sodium will change that.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#254

Post by imglorp »

quitit wrote: post #105
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

This is truly one of those "it begins" moments. The article touches on it - but the news goes well beyond the battery. Li ion batteries come with significant geopolitical baggage beyond simple cost. The situation is well summarised by the graph on this page. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produ...

The chart is about production but does it omit the real story by implying scarcity? There are huge amounts in the US; here are two:

https://www.techspot.com/news/100117-potentially-world-large...

https://www.unilad.com/news/lithium-white-gold-lake-californ...

PS, here's another: https://www.mainepublic.org/2021-10-25/a-1-5-billion-lithium...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#255

Post by cogman10 »

sohamgovande wrote: post #110

Really excited to see that the battery is entering production. Feels like every year we hear about new batteries in the lab that are "2x-5x as efficient as Lithium ion" but they never seem to actually hit production. [1] https://www.yahoo.com/tech/engineers-created-revolutionary-b... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-ran... [3] https://news.mit.edu/2022/aluminum-sulfur-battery-0824

Na batteries are going to be a huge deal. Assuming everything pans out with manufacturing, this will be a game changer for grid storage. Natural gas likely won't be cheaper than doing a battery plant which will be a big deal for peaker plants.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#256

Post by WalterBright »

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #238
WalterBright wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people need 200 mile range for an EV? For example, my daily mileage averages about 5 miles. As an errand-runner, a 30 mile EV would be very practical. The huge benefit of this is a smaller and cheaper battery, and the biggie - much less weight. Much less weight leads to much less tire/brake wear and tire/brake dust pollution. I'd still have a second gas car for the trips.

Most people do not want to have to own two cars.

There are a wide variety of cars to suit various needs. There's a large place for a lightweight 30mi EV. Especially for people who don't want to pay the huge premium for a 7x times more expensive battery.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#257

Post by silisili »

pornel wrote: post #212
silisili wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter, actually. I'd much prefer to stop for five minutes every 2 hours than 30 minutes every 4 hours.

The current state of the art is somewhere in between with 18 minutes per ~3 hours. It even helps to split charging into shorter sessions (2x 9 minutes), because batteries charge fastest when they're about 25% full. Keep in mind that EVs charge unattended, so you only spend a minute plugging in, and can leave to get a coffee, etc.

How 'guaranteed' is that rate? I don't keep up with it like I probably should, but seem to often read that some chargers are outdated, and sometimes you have to 'share' if somebody else is charging nearby?

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#258

Post by chx »

IshKebab wrote: post #202
alemanek wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article it claims charge speed 10x that of lithium and 50,000 cycle lifetime. I don’t know about you but a EV that can go 150 miles and charge to 80% again in 2min would be super compelling to me. Solid commuter car but not too annoying on the rare roadtrip. But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time.

2 mins to charge a 40 kWh battery is 1.2 MW. I can't see that happening any time soon.

Just install an SMR at every gas station. Problem solved! :P

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#259

Post by jdewerd »

refulgentis wrote: post #236
jdewerd wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you spend 200 words arguing for the premise of my second point? Usually one spends time arguing against your opponent but ok, sure, I'm glad we both prefer refining and manufacturing in friendly countries. > [the commencement of mass production of Na batteries in the USA] refutes the core premise of your statement How so? This plant is one tiny step on a very, very long road. I'm glad to see it happen, but ex…

Could have done without the first paragraph. :) I wouldn't be excited to have either Australia (supply locked up by China) or Chile (read anything re: politics last 5 years) as my sources. the general thrust that youre being flippantly dismissive to the point of shading instead of illuminating is correct. (requires discussion about new battery chemistry supply chains to only discuss lithium-ion (??) and specifically…

> Could have done without the first paragraph. :)

Sure, let's turn down the temperature.

> youre being flippantly dismissive to the point of shading instead of illuminating

Let's turn down the temperature.

> I wouldn't be excited to have either Australia ... or Chile ... as my sources

China is even less excited than you are to have Australia and Chile as their sources. Eliminating a small pain from the USA and a big pain from China gives a net benefit to China, so it's weird to see it advertised as a net benefit for the USA.

That said, raw material availability isn't the limiting factor here. We probably shouldn't even be discussing it.

> requires discussion about new battery chemistry supply chains to only discuss lithium-ion (??)

That's the alternative Na-ion has to beat. We could build lithium refining and manufacturing capacity in the US sphere of influence. Evaluations of any new technology should compare it to the best available alternatives, yes?

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#260

Post by hoerensagen »

genewitch wrote: post #195
jvdvegt wrote: post #104

So, with about 10.000 kg of these in my basement (2MWh capacity), I should be mostly self-sufficient? Nice! (4MWh electricity usage per year, with solar panels producing slightly more)

i use between 1 and 2 MWh a month... Do you live underground and not have anything electronic? 1000KWh is 1MWh. I guess if one has all natural gas appliances and no need for air conditioning it's possible to get down to 333KWh a month. i have owned and ran computers that used more than that a month, for goodness' sake.

Between 1 and 2 MWh per year isnt that unusual.

For example in Germany the average per person per year is 1.3MWh.

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