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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#71

Post by crazygringo »

nightowl_games wrote: post #7
downrightmike wrote: post #2

Lower capacity in the same form factor, but inputs are common and cheap as dirt and will be able to do the hard work of supporting grid scale battery storage. We've learned that there are many applications that do not need to capacity of lithium.

Hopefully we can continue to lower the power requirements of our every day items and the lower capacity of these batteries will become less of an issue.

Not really sure how much further there is to go.

We've already got LED bulbs, heat pumps, and energy-efficient appliances.

Washers and dryers still have to spin and agitate. Dishwashers still have to shoot jets of water. Ceiling fans still need to move air.

And with the switch to electrification (cars, stoves, dryers, hot water heaters) electricity usage will increase, fortunately, to replace polluting gasoline.

So I think future technological progress really is going to come down to increased battery capacity, not decreasing energy usage.

Ultimately, the simple fact is that solar power isn't generated at night.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#72

Post by chefandy »

idontwantthis wrote: post #35
toomuchtodo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

> Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. From everything I've read about existing Lithuum battery storage, this is already their strongpoint. Is it helpful t…

I can't think of many things where a 10x improvement in its strongest important metric wouldn't be useful? I imagine dumping a lot of current into something very quickly and recovering it 50k times would be pretty useful in bursty workloads-- industrial processes, solar-powered gates and lifts, alarms, ignition systems, etc. And that's just gravy considering the real selling point is being made from commodity materials. Even if they're too heavy or something for electric cars, it would be great if it was a viable replacement for lead-acid car batteries.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#73

Post by JumpCrisscross »

fallingsquirrel wrote: post #61
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> never seen the appeal of phones so thin I could shave with them For people who wear slimmer-fitting clothing, this matters. Also, it’s more about the weight: you want a phone light enough that holding it up isn’t tedious.

This isn't playing out in reality though. 10 years ago we already had the tech for smaller phones (and yes the battery life was fine, 1-2 days typical). Just check out any flagship from the 2010-2015 era, e.g. https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i9500_galaxy_s4-5125.php If people actually care about slim, light phones... why has almost every company stopped making them?

> If people actually care about slim, light phones... why has almost every company stopped making them?

It’s not the sole factor. But ceteris paribus, most consumer prefer a thinner, lighter phone.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#74

Post by alemanek »

_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

From the article it claims charge speed 10x that of lithium and 50,000 cycle lifetime. I don’t know about you but a EV that can go 150 miles and charge to 80% again in 2min would be super compelling to me.

Solid commuter car but not too annoying on the rare roadtrip.

But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#75

Post by jwagenet »

_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

This falls in line with a plug in hybrid being an excellent alternative to evs for most people. 30-50 miles of driving around town for work an errands, with an ICE for the occasional longer trip. Almost all driving will be electric without the charge anxiety.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#76

Post by bjornsing »

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

Interesting. Is there a public spreadsheet or similar summarizing the most important properties of these new battery types? It takes forever to just research one of them in enough depth to understand their basic properties, and I’d like to compare many.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#77

Post by aidenn0 »

If I'm reading this page[1] correctly they are playing fast-and-loose with the power-density numbers. Compared to Li-Ion shows 4x the power-per-Wh, but is about 1/4 the energy density, so the power density (in Watts/g) is about the same as Li-Ion?

[edit]

That page links a data-sheet that claims ~500W/kg which is much better than LFP, I couldn't find any reliable numbers for NMC, but I suspect its more than half of that?

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#78

Post by mschuster91 »

hilbert42 wrote: post #65
GuB-42 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who wants a fat smartphone with lower battery life? Smartphones are where people want as much energy density as possible. Smartphones are also expensive devices with a relatively small battery, so it makes sense to add a few dollars for more energy density. Also most smartphone manufacturers are very much into planned obsolescence, so much that countries are starting to legislate, they don't really want long last…

"…smartphone manufacturers are very much into planned obsolescence,…" E-waste laws at some point will become inevitable, so planned obsolescence will be under scrutiny. Devices will have to have a minimum design life etc. Moreover, user-replaceable batteries—whether long life or high capacity—are likely to be mandatory as a result of such legislation. My old Nokia used to have a replaceable battery which also served…

> Manufacturers can't use the argument that it can't be done because it was common practice with Nokia 20 years ago. Nowadays more modern design practices will make that even easier to implement.

The problem is water resistance. Your old Nokia (except the indestructible 3310) was dead if you managed to let it fall into water, most phones up until the end of the headphone jack had the same problem - and secure-boot stuff has made it virtually impossible to recover data if the phone doesn't boot up any more.

Water resistance and non-sealed phones don't really mix, unless you're going for really bulky things like the CAT lineup or Samsung's Active Tab series.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#79

Post by justahuman74 »

idontwantthis wrote: post #35
toomuchtodo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

> Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. From everything I've read about existing Lithuum battery storage, this is already their strongpoint. Is it helpful t…

Change rates of lithium batteries are a huge negative compared to pumping gasoline

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#80

Post by [deleted] »

_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

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