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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#31

Post by helf »

analognoise wrote: post #10
dtx1 wrote: post #8

50 Thousand Cycles would make replacing batteries unnecessary for almost all usecases. I would love such a battery in an electric bike. Max Range would be quite limited compared to a Lithium Version but with 10x discharge capacity and functionally unlimited life you could make a beast of a commuter e-bike. 50000 Cycles would realistically mean you can charge the bike every day for a hundred years

The first generation will work like that. Then they will introduce various defects into the manufacturing process to decrease the lifespan (and they'll say it's cost) and the batteries will last 10 years max. Maybe 15 if you're lucky.

[dead]

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#32

Post by specialist »

ancorevard wrote: post #15

Zero dependency on China is a pretty significant bonus.

Huh. I just checked. Swiss-based company Arxada supplies the (battery grade) prussian blue that Natron uses. Though I didn't quickly determine where it's actually made. Probably UK.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#33

Post by vegetablepotpie »

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charge cycle in their lifetime and can store energy for longer durations [2].

The advantage with Sodium Ion is that, although energy densities are lower than Lithium Ion, it could still be used to power mobile devices and electric vehicles.

[1] https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2024-02-19/weirton-fo...

[2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2023-02-02/vanadium-redo...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#34

Post by rgbrenner »

tmaly wrote: post #12

I remember seeing a post on HN a few years back where a professor at MIT figured out how to make a battery out of more abundant materials. Does anyone recall this post or have a link?

Ambri? They've been making very slow progress.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#35

Post by idontwantthis »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #5
downrightmike wrote: post #2

Lower capacity in the same form factor, but inputs are common and cheap as dirt and will be able to do the hard work of supporting grid scale battery storage. We've learned that there are many applications that do not need to capacity of lithium.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

> Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles.

From everything I've read about existing Lithuum battery storage, this is already their strongpoint. Is it helpful to be 10x faster that the current speed?

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#36

Post by MrDrMcCoy »

GuB-42 wrote: post #25
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it isn't as high-capacity, a longer-lasting and safer battery over a thinner smartphone isn't a _bad_ trade-off, specially considering chips and screens get more efficient. This might have more market than stationary batteries.

But who wants a fat smartphone with lower battery life? Smartphones are where people want as much energy density as possible. Smartphones are also expensive devices with a relatively small battery, so it makes sense to add a few dollars for more energy density. Also most smartphone manufacturers are very much into planned obsolescence, so much that countries are starting to legislate, they don't really want long last…

Personally, I wouldn't mind a fatter phone. It actually might be easier for me to hold. I've never seen the appeal of phones so thin I could shave with them.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#37

Post by tharkun__ »

demondemidi wrote: post #11
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they safer? Sodium is also very highly reactive. Otherwise agreed, I'm very happy with form factor of 5-10 year old phones.

NaCl is pretty safe. ;)

Depends on the quantity and who you ask what the safe level is ;)

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#38

Post by MrDrMcCoy »

hackernewds wrote: post #28
analognoise wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first generation will work like that. Then they will introduce various defects into the manufacturing process to decrease the lifespan (and they'll say it's cost) and the batteries will last 10 years max. Maybe 15 if you're lucky.

Why so cynical

I mean, look at what was done to lighting. There are some original Edison bulbs that still work, yet you'd be lucky to get a year out of a modern incandescent. Same thing happened to LED bulbs.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#39

Post by RetroTechie »

XorNot wrote: post #23

Big if cheaper - which is the crux of the issue. LiFePO4 loses money in every analysis of putting in a home battery I've done: if sodium is more common, the question is does that meaningfully reduce the price of the battery.

> the question is does that meaningfully reduce the price of the battery.

Battery manufacture isn't rocket science. The cost of raw materials weighs heavily.

Also: safety, and raw materials that can be sourced anywhere.

Nice to see sodium battery production scaling up.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#40

Post by garbageman »

londons_explore wrote: post #30
downrightmike wrote: post #2

Lower capacity in the same form factor, but inputs are common and cheap as dirt and will be able to do the hard work of supporting grid scale battery storage. We've learned that there are many applications that do not need to capacity of lithium.

> cheap as dirt There are lots of things left to make grid battery storage cheap. As well as the cells needing to be engineered to be cheaper, there are lots of changes to the battery packs that can be made, together with changes to inverters. For batteries, I'd like to see research into less consistent manufacturing and higher failure rates. Current packs the entire pack is unusable if just one cell fails in a way t…

While it would be neat to build batteries that handle manufacturing defects akin to a CPU with 4 cores but 3 useable, I suspect the additional complexity, wiring, and circuitry is limiting. Batteries today are almost (or actually?) a commodity. Detecting and simply replacing the entire battery is probably cheaper and easier at grid scale.
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