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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it isn't as high-capacity, a longer-lasting and safer battery over a thinner smartphone isn't a _bad_ trade-off, specially considering chips and screens get more efficient. This might have more market than stationary batteries.

Are they safer? Sodium is also very highly reactive. Otherwise agreed, I'm very happy with form factor of 5-10 year old phones.

NaCl is pretty safe. ;)

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#13

Lower capacity in the same form factor, but inputs are common and cheap as dirt and will be able to do the hard work of supporting grid scale battery storage. We've learned that there are many applications that do not need to capacity of lithium.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

[deleted]

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it isn't as high-capacity, a longer-lasting and safer battery over a thinner smartphone isn't a _bad_ trade-off, specially considering chips and screens get more efficient. This might have more market than stationary batteries.

Are they safer? Sodium is also very highly reactive. Otherwise agreed, I'm very happy with form factor of 5-10 year old phones.

The battery made by the company mentioned uses an aqueous electrolyte construction which is theoretically safer from what I read, but I don't know if it can be made small for a portable.

The fact it supports more cycles and tolerates a broader temperature range than Lithium counts points towards safety too. Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#16

Lower capacity in the same form factor, but inputs are common and cheap as dirt and will be able to do the hard work of supporting grid scale battery storage. We've learned that there are many applications that do not need to capacity of lithium.

Grid storage is dominated by $/kWh.

For land and sea transport it's mostly volume/kWh.

For electric aircraft it's kg/kWh.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#18

Lower capacity in the same form factor, but inputs are common and cheap as dirt and will be able to do the hard work of supporting grid scale battery storage. We've learned that there are many applications that do not need to capacity of lithium.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

The challenge with interpreting statements like this is that there isn't just one lithium battery chemistry in widespread use, and even within a single chemistry the detailed structure of the anode and cathode can greatly change both achievable charge/discharge rates and longevity. For example, compared to the most commonly available energy-storage-optimized NMC cylindrical cells, LTO cylindrical cells charge and discharge at rates up to 10x faster, and have an estimated lifetime of tens of thousands of cycles... in exchange for have half or less of the energy density. Which is to say, depending on the exact details of the sodium cells being discussed, it's extremely likely that their entire performance envelope is achievable today with some combination of NMC, LFP, and LTO cells; although they may yet prove to have a cost advantage.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it isn't as high-capacity, a longer-lasting and safer battery over a thinner smartphone isn't a _bad_ trade-off, specially considering chips and screens get more efficient. This might have more market than stationary batteries.

Are they safer? Sodium is also very highly reactive. Otherwise agreed, I'm very happy with form factor of 5-10 year old phones.

Here's Natron's page about safety: https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety

I don't think the battery is a big block of pure sodium. That would be unsafe.

The battery electrolyte contains sodium ions, but the same is true of salt water and Gatorade.

I think the industrial source of their sodium is sodium hydoxide, a common industrial feedstock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide

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