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Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

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Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, however I was under the impression that Jews in Arabic countries (including Palestine) spoke primarily Arabic, and it was only after they migrated (or were otherwise absorbed into) Israel when they converted to Hebrew. And that the modern Hebrew language was a Zionist effort (a European colonial enterprise) to convert all immigrants to Israel to Hebrew speakers. So even though today most Israeli Jews speak Heb…

It is hard to understand the point you're trying to make here. Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans". I don't know that trying to sort out whether Hebrew is European or not is an especially productive enterprise.

What I’m trying to argue is that Israelis of middle east and north African ancestry are also victims of European colonization. That their cultural identity was erased and absorbed into the dominant European identity.

The introduction of Modern Hebrew was unmistakably a Zionist enterprise (which it self is a breed of European colonialism). As I’m reading through the linked sources in the Wikipedia article I cited I see how much of a cultural pressure Arabic speaking immigrants were put into speaking Hebrew, not Arabic, in public. As if their language (and by extension their cultural identity) was dirty somehow:

> “I wanted people to speak Hebrew,” she said. “Kids who had Yiddish in their house felt the same. It was more so for those of us coming from the Islamic world, since Arabic was identified as the language of the enemy.” [1]

Now Yiddish speaker probably experienced something similar, but at least they had other aspects of their culture accepted:

> But the builders of the Israeli state faced a major ideological challenge with the Jewish population of the Middle East, who were encouraged to mass migrate to Palestine and used as cheap labour to build Zionist settlements. What the European colonisers found particularly “disturbing” about the Mizrahi Jews was their “Arab character”.

> As Israel’s first female prime minister, Golda Meir, declared: “Every loyal Jew must speak Yiddish, for he who does not know Yiddish is not a Jew.”

> That is, the only true Jewish identity was the one that the Ashkenazi elite had brought from Europe; the Jewishness of the Mizrahim (or Sephardim) was “impure”. Because of that, they were deemed susceptible to “Arab influence” and their loyalty questioned. Action had to be taken swiftly to control this “suspect” Jewish community which soon became half of the Israeli population. [2]

This kind of reminds me of modern day California, how many Latin American immigrants (first and second generation) don’t feel comfortable speaking Spanish in public, instead speaking the language of the dominant culture, and having a part of their cultural identity erased as a result.

1: https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/recovering-judeo-ar...

2: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/3/21/singing-in-euro...

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans." I'd recommend you also start reading more carefully, please. This (the idea that "MENA are European") is very clearly not what runarberg is saying. Nor are they even remotely suggesting that "Hebrew is European".

You're responding to a comment that opens up "it is hard to understand what point you're making". You can tell me what the point he's making is, if you're confident in it. In turn, I'll be more careful about using quotation marks. That's an HN tic that I sometimes forget. While I have both of your attention --- you all get that this is the same group of like 4-6 people talking to themselves, over and over, right? On…

The thing that sparked my interest here is a sidenote in one of the cited Wikipedia articles:

> Not all Jews immigrating to Israel from European countries are of Ashkenazi origin (the majority of French Jews are of Sephardic, and some Jews from the Asian Republics of the USSR are Mizrahi), and the Israeli government does not distinguish between Jewish communities in its census. [1]

That is how the Israeli government doesn’t track European vs. MENA ethnicity, instead leaving it up to studies to guess. And it took me on a rabbit hole of trying to figure out why that is. It feels very odd to separate between Arabs and Jews, but not allow Jews to identify as Arab-Jew in the population statistics.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to understand the point you're trying to make here. Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans". I don't know that trying to sort out whether Hebrew is European or not is an especially productive enterprise.

What I’m trying to argue is that Israelis of middle east and north African ancestry are also victims of European colonization. That their cultural identity was erased and absorbed into the dominant European identity. The introduction of Modern Hebrew was unmistakably a Zionist enterprise (which it self is a breed of European colonialism). As I’m reading through the linked sources in the Wikipedia article I cited I se…

I took this to #judaism on a Slack I'm on (I'm not Jewish; I'm Irish/Slavic Catholic) and got an earful about how complex the history is here:

* The people of the Old Yishuv spoke Yiddish and Ladino, European languages, as well as Israeli Arabic; European language influence long predates Zionism.

* The European character you're imputing to Modern Hebrew is its pronunciation, but Hebrew itself is the common character of all those languages, Ashkenazic, Sephardic, and Arabic.

* Jewish people in the Middle Eastern diaspora generally spoke Hebrew-inflected dialects of the regional languages (as you noted with the Judeo-Arabic page).

* Israel is a melting pot of influences from the Jewish diaspora; for instance, Morrocan Jewish people determined the way Passover is celebrated (with Mimouna). Everything cuts in every direction.

I'm not doing all this stuff justice (in case anyone from that Slack is reading this comment); just to say, all of this stuff is super complicated.

What I'd like to understand better is: the comment you were responding to was defending the proposition that significant numbers (a plurality, I think?) of Israelis are indigenous MENA people. I get that there was probably cultural pressure to adopt Hebrew, and that modern Hebrew is associated with the Zionist cause. The Mizrahim generally arrived in Israel after the Nakba (in a series of counter-Nakbas), and were poorer, more rural, and less privileged than the Israelis who met them there. Sure, that rings true.

But what difference does that make to the point the parent commenter was making? I'm just trying to understand the argument.

(This I guess is a second reason I pop up on these threads: to get an excuse to get my head blown off with historical and linguistic facts from friends on Slacks).

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His commentary isn't the exonerating statement you seem to think it is. By his own admission he sought to join the protestors (he went to the lounge on the 10th floor of Google’s New York City office around lunchtime to check out the protest) and spent an indeterminate amount of time talking with protestors the first time around (I talked to folks who were standing up, passing out flyers, doing other roles) Anyway it…

He sought to join the protestors He went to "check out", and for a fraction of that time "talk with" the protestors, by the words you are quoting. To "join the protestors" (implying some sort of direct participation) would of course be something entirely different, and in no way grounded in the description we have. It doesn't matter 4 hours v. 4 min An impartial observer of the situation would most likely strongly di…

> assuming he must be guilty of something awful

He is. He is guilty of doing something his employer didn't like and they fired him for it.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I’m trying to argue is that Israelis of middle east and north African ancestry are also victims of European colonization. That their cultural identity was erased and absorbed into the dominant European identity. The introduction of Modern Hebrew was unmistakably a Zionist enterprise (which it self is a breed of European colonialism). As I’m reading through the linked sources in the Wikipedia article I cited I se…

I took this to #judaism on a Slack I'm on (I'm not Jewish; I'm Irish/Slavic Catholic) and got an earful about how complex the history is here: * The people of the Old Yishuv spoke Yiddish and Ladino, European languages, as well as Israeli Arabic; European language influence long predates Zionism. * The European character you're imputing to Modern Hebrew is its pronunciation, but Hebrew itself is the common character…

I actually don’t think this is related. I entered this thread by misunderstanding my parent and getting the numbers wrong. Then I stated:

> What is also interesting to me is the lack of official statistics from the Israeli government about this ethnic brake down.

I saw this in one of the cited Wikipedia article (and my anti-colonial bells started ringing) which brought me down this rabbit hole (see other post).

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took this to #judaism on a Slack I'm on (I'm not Jewish; I'm Irish/Slavic Catholic) and got an earful about how complex the history is here: * The people of the Old Yishuv spoke Yiddish and Ladino, European languages, as well as Israeli Arabic; European language influence long predates Zionism. * The European character you're imputing to Modern Hebrew is its pronunciation, but Hebrew itself is the common character…

I actually don’t think this is related. I entered this thread by misunderstanding my parent and getting the numbers wrong. Then I stated: > What is also interesting to me is the lack of official statistics from the Israeli government about this ethnic brake down. I saw this in one of the cited Wikipedia article (and my anti-colonial bells started ringing) which brought me down this rabbit hole (see other post).

Gotcha. This is like 80% me nerding out at this point.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans." I'd recommend you also start reading more carefully, please. This (the idea that "MENA are European") is very clearly not what runarberg is saying. Nor are they even remotely suggesting that "Hebrew is European".

You're responding to a comment that opens up "it is hard to understand what point you're making". You can tell me what the point he's making is, if you're confident in it. In turn, I'll be more careful about using quotation marks. That's an HN tic that I sometimes forget. While I have both of your attention --- you all get that this is the same group of like 4-6 people talking to themselves, over and over, right? On…

[deleted]

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#378
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 44.9% (or more) of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and 20% of Israel’s entire population are Palestinian Arabs (I.e. also of Middle Eastern descent) then more than 50% of the entire population of the country (Jews + non-Jews) are of Middle Eastern descent. And the biggest ethnic grouping (if you choose to group them that way, as all such groupings are somewhat arbitrary) are Middle Eastern Jews. And I’…

Aside from the relatively recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union (starting from the 90s) Jews of all backgrounds speak primarily Hebrew. It sounds like you’ve never ... You must not be reading the post above yours. Because very clearly, the commenter wasn't saying that the Mizrahi don't currently speak Hebrew (some 60-70 years post-migration). Rather they were referring to loss of identity, de-facto forced as…

But the Yiddish speaking culture of Ashkenazi Jews was also erased. At the founding of Israel the ideology was "we're all Israelis now, so speak Hebrew and forget your experience in the diaspora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golah). It was certainly harsh and from modern perspective wrong but it applied to everyone, not just Mizrahi Jews. My grandparents had their last name "Hebrew-ised" and spoke Hebrew at home rather than their native Romanian/Ukranian/Russian.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel doesn't restrict citizenship to only Jews, it is probably more heterogenous than Palestine. Israel is 20% Arab. The Palestinian 'right of return' is meant for Palestinian and no one else (perhaps unsurprisngly). I don't see how this isn't the will to create an ethnostate, it's a mirror image of Zionism.

Israel doesn't restrict citizenship to only Jews, But its laws extend greatly preferential treatment to (certain kinds of) Jews, of course. "Jews" (or those deemed as such by certain disputed criteria) may naturalize, but with onerous requirements: demonstrating proficiency in Hebrew being one of them (that "other" indigenous language, Arabic, or other common languages of pre-1947 inhabitants such as Armenian just wo…

> In human terms, one could also look it as an attempt to restore basic dignity and liberty to these folks, more or less on par to what is provided to prospective citizens of Jewish ancestry via the Law of Return.

I agree. So then I don't get the demonization against Zionism. Sometimes ethnostates make sense due to special circumstances in history and in the present.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel doesn't restrict citizenship to only Jews, it is probably more heterogenous than Palestine. Israel is 20% Arab. The Palestinian 'right of return' is meant for Palestinian and no one else (perhaps unsurprisngly). I don't see how this isn't the will to create an ethnostate, it's a mirror image of Zionism.

I personally never said Israel is an ethnostate, but a Palestinian state is definitely not a mirror image of Zionism. It was never historically monoethnic and issues with Jews is a post-Israeli thing. Not to discount pre-Israel antisemitism or the Arab nationalism movement, but national identity was always tied to a pan-ethnicity rather than religion or bloodline. Maybe a simple example of this is Armenians (Christia…

Palestinians aren't an ethnicity then? But Jews are?
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