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Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

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Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#361

Post by gitfan86 »

faeriechangling wrote: post #352
gitfan86 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I feel "Virtue signalling" isn't really fair when they have so much skin in the game here. That's evidence of sincerity rather than disingenuousness, agree or disagree with them. Unless the definition of virtue signalling is so expansive as to be meaningless, where every act of protest which is not anonymous is virtue signalling.

The consequence of their actions is that they receive high social status from people with similar politics and Google makes zero changes to their contracts with Israel. And that was obviously going to be the result of these actions.

If you want to attribute their actions to a genuine desire to help the Palestinians, that is fine.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#362

Post by ido »

runarberg wrote: post #359
ido wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking about Jews in Israel. They are a bit more than half Mizrahi/Sephardi/Beta-Israel (not European) and a bit less than half Ashkenazi (European). The vast majority of Sephardi and Mezrahi in Israel are from what are now muslim countries in the Middle East. Together with 20% of the population that are Muslim or Christian Palestinians people of middle-eastern descent comprise well over 50% of the population (…

I went digging around for numbers in these wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Population These articles agree that Jews of European ancestry comprise around 44.2% vs 44.9% of Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) ancestry. The study that gave these numbers admitted on having methodological limitations, so it may be undercounting M…

If 44.9% (or more) of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and 20% of Israel’s entire population are Palestinian Arabs (I.e. also of Middle Eastern descent) then more than 50% of the entire population of the country (Jews + non-Jews) are of Middle Eastern descent.

And the biggest ethnic grouping (if you choose to group them that way, as all such groupings are somewhat arbitrary) are Middle Eastern Jews.

And I’m sorry but it just sounds like you’ve never lived in Israel or even visited for an extended period of time. Aside from the relatively recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union (starting from the 90s) Jews of all backgrounds speak primarily Hebrew, whether Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, or whatever. Aside from some ultra orthodox you will also not find anyone under 80 speaking Yiddish.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#363

Post by Willish42 »

Georgelemental wrote: post #296
Willish42 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which, unlike "systemic racism", is actually real If you truly think the concept of systemic racism does not exist, your warped perspective is probably beyond saving. The term itself dates back to the 60s and has a long history of academic and real-world relevance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism With where political discourse in developed nations has gotten, I really shouldn't be surprised, but…

> The term itself dates back to the 60s Systemic racism did exist in the 60s, of course. (One good empirical test: during the era of Jim Crow, many black people tried to pass as white so as to gain access to the opportunities that were denied to black people. Does this still happen today, or is the reverse more likely?) > statistically proven cases of disproportionate policing of certain races of individuals Not when…

Fine, I'll bite. Here's the retraction statement, which I read in full. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014148117

Some key quotes (emphasis added via italics)

> Despite this correction, our work has continued to be cited as providing support for the idea that there are no racial biases in fatal shootings, or policing in general. To be clear, our work does not speak to these issues and should not be used to support such statements. We take full responsibility for not being careful enough with the inferences made in our original report, as this directly led to the misunderstanding of our research.

> While our data and statistical approach were appropriate for investigating whether officer characteristics are related to the race of civilians fatally shot by police, they are inadequate to address racial disparities in the probability of being shot. Given these issues and the continued use of our work in the public debate on this topic, we have decided to retract the article.

Here's a random hit I found on Google in less than 30 seconds: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-syst.... Note that this is PBS, not CNN or MSNBC or other "liberal" media sources.

Here's two recent-ish studies from Harvard, which were also published: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/...

Care to refute these, or do you just only believe data you've (mis-?)interpreted to match your existing world view?

It seems to me that, at a minimum, your assertion that "systemic racism doesn't exist" is a controversial one in conflict with the retraction statement above from that papers' authors, and by the general public at large. I also find it interesting that you've moved the goal post from "doesn't exist" to "doesn't exist anymore", and seem to have found one study to support your claim, which has been retracted and -- by the authors' own admission, is insufficient evidence for the claim you're asserting from their study.

I really don't agree with your assessment or disingenuous interpretation of the data on this issue. If you have any sort of scientific reason to convince me otherwise beyond "political correctness bad. you gotta read between the lines!", I'm all ears.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#364

Post by runarberg »

ido wrote: post #362
runarberg wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went digging around for numbers in these wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Population These articles agree that Jews of European ancestry comprise around 44.2% vs 44.9% of Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) ancestry. The study that gave these numbers admitted on having methodological limitations, so it may be undercounting M…

If 44.9% (or more) of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and 20% of Israel’s entire population are Palestinian Arabs (I.e. also of Middle Eastern descent) then more than 50% of the entire population of the country (Jews + non-Jews) are of Middle Eastern descent. And the biggest ethnic grouping (if you choose to group them that way, as all such groupings are somewhat arbitrary) are Middle Eastern Jews. And I’…

I see, however I was under the impression that Jews in Arabic countries (including Palestine) spoke primarily Arabic, and it was only after they migrated (or were otherwise absorbed into) Israel when they converted to Hebrew. And that the modern Hebrew language was a Zionist effort (a European colonial enterprise) to convert all immigrants to Israel to Hebrew speakers. So even though today most Israeli Jews speak Hebrew, the only reason for that is the colonial prospects of European settlers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_dialects#Present_...

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#365

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #364
ido wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 44.9% (or more) of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and 20% of Israel’s entire population are Palestinian Arabs (I.e. also of Middle Eastern descent) then more than 50% of the entire population of the country (Jews + non-Jews) are of Middle Eastern descent. And the biggest ethnic grouping (if you choose to group them that way, as all such groupings are somewhat arbitrary) are Middle Eastern Jews. And I’…

I see, however I was under the impression that Jews in Arabic countries (including Palestine) spoke primarily Arabic, and it was only after they migrated (or were otherwise absorbed into) Israel when they converted to Hebrew. And that the modern Hebrew language was a Zionist effort (a European colonial enterprise) to convert all immigrants to Israel to Hebrew speakers. So even though today most Israeli Jews speak Heb…

It is hard to understand the point you're trying to make here. Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans". I don't know that trying to sort out whether Hebrew is European or not is an especially productive enterprise.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#366

Post by racional »

ido wrote: post #362
runarberg wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went digging around for numbers in these wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Population These articles agree that Jews of European ancestry comprise around 44.2% vs 44.9% of Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) ancestry. The study that gave these numbers admitted on having methodological limitations, so it may be undercounting M…

If 44.9% (or more) of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and 20% of Israel’s entire population are Palestinian Arabs (I.e. also of Middle Eastern descent) then more than 50% of the entire population of the country (Jews + non-Jews) are of Middle Eastern descent. And the biggest ethnic grouping (if you choose to group them that way, as all such groupings are somewhat arbitrary) are Middle Eastern Jews. And I’…

Aside from the relatively recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union (starting from the 90s) Jews of all backgrounds speak primarily Hebrew.

It sounds like you’ve never ...

You must not be reading the post above yours.

Because very clearly, the commenter wasn't saying that the Mizrahi don't currently speak Hebrew (some 60-70 years post-migration). Rather they were referring to loss of identity, de-facto forced assimilation and other unhappy circumstances they faced as a consequence of that migration.

You may not like where they're going with the "colonial" interpretation, and other ideological implications they're drawing on top of this (e.g. the erasure of Judeo-Arabic identity).

But that's no reason to start putting words into their mouth, and making them out to say something that they're plainly not.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#367

Post by tptacek »

racional wrote: post #357
weatherlite wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Palestinians want a Palestinian ethnostate from the river to the sea.

Some do, but reliable percentage data on this topic seems to be hard to come by. And many Israelis (and the current extremist regime) want the exact reverse of course. And make no apologies for this fact.

That's true, regarding the fringe neo-Kahanist "Greater Israel" coalition Netanyahu assembled. But as you know, it's also true of Hamas; that's the "some" you're referring to. Issue polling is tricky, but it's likely that a majority of Israelis oppose the positions of Netayahu's coalition.

(It's probably true that a majority of Gazans at this point oppose the Hamas program; it's very difficult to know, because both Israel and Hamas have done their best to make sure that the opinions of ordinary Gazans are suppressed).

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#368

Post by racional »

tptacek wrote: post #365
runarberg wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, however I was under the impression that Jews in Arabic countries (including Palestine) spoke primarily Arabic, and it was only after they migrated (or were otherwise absorbed into) Israel when they converted to Hebrew. And that the modern Hebrew language was a Zionist effort (a European colonial enterprise) to convert all immigrants to Israel to Hebrew speakers. So even though today most Israeli Jews speak Heb…

It is hard to understand the point you're trying to make here. Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans". I don't know that trying to sort out whether Hebrew is European or not is an especially productive enterprise.

Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans."

I'd recommend you also start reading more carefully, please.

This (the idea that "MENA are European") is very clearly not what runarberg is saying. Nor are they even remotely suggesting that "Hebrew is European".

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#369

Post by tptacek »

racional wrote: post #368
tptacek wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hard to understand the point you're trying to make here. Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans". I don't know that trying to sort out whether Hebrew is European or not is an especially productive enterprise.

Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans." I'd recommend you also start reading more carefully, please. This (the idea that "MENA are European") is very clearly not what runarberg is saying. Nor are they even remotely suggesting that "Hebrew is European".

You're responding to a comment that opens up "it is hard to understand what point you're making". You can tell me what the point he's making is, if you're confident in it.

In turn, I'll be more careful about using quotation marks. That's an HN tic that I sometimes forget.

While I have both of your attention --- you all get that this is the same group of like 4-6 people talking to themselves, over and over, right? On HN, a 2-day-old threat is necrotic. As I've said elsewhere, I only really have two angles on this issue: (1) that Israelis aren't European and Gazans aren't Hamas, and (2) that none of this is ever going to get settled on HN.

Re: Google workers fired for protesting Israeli contract file NLRB complaint

#370

Post by Georgelemental »

Willish42 wrote: post #363
Georgelemental wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The term itself dates back to the 60s Systemic racism did exist in the 60s, of course. (One good empirical test: during the era of Jim Crow, many black people tried to pass as white so as to gain access to the opportunities that were denied to black people. Does this still happen today, or is the reverse more likely?) > statistically proven cases of disproportionate policing of certain races of individuals Not when…

Fine, I'll bite. Here's the retraction statement, which I read in full. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2014148117 Some key quotes (emphasis added via italics ) > Despite this correction, our work has continued to be cited as providing support for the idea that there are no racial biases in fatal shootings, or policing in general. To be clear, our work does not speak to these issues and should not be used to su…

> Here's a random hit I found on Google in less than 30 seconds: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/annual-report-shows-syst...

> The index shows not only that median household income for Black people, at $43,862, is 37 precent less than that of white people, at $69,823. Black people also are less likely to benefit from home ownership, the engine of generational wealth in America. Census data shows Black couples are more than twice as likely as whites to be denied a mortgage or a home improvement loan, which leads to just 59 percent of the median home equity white households have, and just 13 percent of their wealth.

These numbers just show that racial disparities exist. Which they obviously do! But disparities are not proof of discrimination, there are many other potential causes.

> Here's two recent-ish studies from Harvard, which were also published: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/population-development/2019/11/...

The two studies measured reported discrimination. Which is not proof of actual systemic discrimination.

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