Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yet.
I think it’s actually pretty darn stupid that we aren’t running one way missions.
I, and I bet other people bored on Earth with nothing to look forward to, would gladly sign up for a one-way trip to Mars.
New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
291–300 of 329 posts
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't see him saying that, so probably not. But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either. Looking at Wikipedia there seems to be something going on with Braun's involvement in forced labour and war prisoners. I don't see an outline of what the problem is; maybe there is something serious but if there is a problem Wikipedia doesn't seem to detail it. If building horrible weapons is a war crime…
>But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either. How familiar are you with jus ad bellum and jus en bello? Most legal scholars conclude German use of force against the UK was a violation of jus ad bellum and the indiscriminate nature of V-1 and V-2 rockets including their use against civilians was a violation of jus en bello. The Nuremberg Trials were primarily focused on prosecuting individuals w…
> WvB was should have been tried for the deaths of thousands of forced workers and civilians
Perhaps. But this doesn't change the fact that there were thousands or at least hundreds of others guilty of bigger crimes (at least directly) were never prosecuted. Only a tiny minority of war criminals were actually tried after WW2. And almost none of those who escaped justice (or received a slap on the wrist at most) were rocket scientists or were later hired by the US government.
The whole "denazification" process in Germany was very lenient and superficial relative to the severity of the crimes that were committed during and before the war. von Braun was very far down the ladder of responsibility...
> ad bellum and the indiscriminate nature of V-1 and V-2 rockets including their use against civilians was a violation of jus en bello.
Also on that.. how is this not the same as Order No. 154 (unrestricted submarine warfare). Dönitz was exonerated of war crimes because allies admitted that they were doing the same (IIRC Allied admirals even testified on his behalf). Certainly this would apply to the case of indiscriminate bombings? And von Braun wasn't even giving the order so by the standards of the day (or modern standards) I don't see who could he be legally tried for this.
The whole slave worker thing was another matter of course but almost nobody was prosecuted for stuff like that anyway..
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't see him saying that, so probably not. But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either. Looking at Wikipedia there seems to be something going on with Braun's involvement in forced labour and war prisoners. I don't see an outline of what the problem is; maybe there is something serious but if there is a problem Wikipedia doesn't seem to detail it. If building horrible weapons is a war crime…
>But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either. How familiar are you with jus ad bellum and jus en bello? Most legal scholars conclude German use of force against the UK was a violation of jus ad bellum and the indiscriminate nature of V-1 and V-2 rockets including their use against civilians was a violation of jus en bello. The Nuremberg Trials were primarily focused on prosecuting individuals w…
[deleted]
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#294Earlier quoted context omitted.
> How familiar are you with jus ad bellum and jus en bello? Yeah they're terms of art. When US or British people use them they mean that aggression by English speakers is appropriate (really we should characterise any aggression as fundamentally defensive in nature) but aggression by people using barbarian tongues is inappropriate (if it damages the commercial interests of English speakers it might be better termed a…
> being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime Neither is being a chancellor. von Braun was much more than the super-selective characterization of "rocket scientist". His were the actions of a war criminal to anyone except his supporters and the people who benefited greatly from him not being considered as such. Eye witness testimonies say that von Braun personally picked slave laborers from concentration…
> The only reason he got away with these crimes is
That's not really true though. Most nazis who were committing crimes on the same level (or even more serious ones) got away with them.
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
- "Former Buchenwald inmate Adam Cabala stated that von Braun went to the concentration camp to pick slave laborers:" - "... also the German scientists led by Prof. Wernher von Braun were aware of everything daily. As they went along the corridors, they saw the exhaustion of the inmates, their arduous work and their pain. Not one single time did Prof. Wernher von Braun protest against this cruelty during his frequent…
> It's a loud silence when someone circles around the topic without mentioning it It's a unique feature of American/Western historiography that would incline you to believe this. I find it interesting we don't have to tack on similar disclaimers when it comes to any other similarly horrible group throughout history; the brutality of the Caesars, the Chinese emperors, the Comanche -- forget about it: we can speak of t…
> we can speak of them dispassionately, as non-temporal observers
Well, we can also speak of Wernher von Braun or even contemporary figures that way. It's only more likely that someone comes along and points out that we shouldn't forget about the context.
When we speak of ancient history, the context is already forgotten beyond what has been documented. There are no living witnesses nor people who directly related to them. (Of course, archaeological and historical research can find more evidence.)
However we do speak of them passionately anyway, even if the discussion is less emotional. You bringing up the examples that you brought up is a perfect example. People immediately understand what you mean. Anyone who agrees with you will have to feel passionately about these long past events.
We all know about the cruelties that came with the Ceasars etc. because people documented them and didn't let it go. We don't need to point it out because it is common knowledge. Do go to a history conference and claim that Julius Caesar was a totally fine and nice guy and you'll see that people can get passionate very quickly.
Discussions get stirred up more quickly for contemporary figures whose power to let information disappear or fade away can sometimes extend beyond their own deaths - for as long as there are people alive who may be affected by the image created.
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#296Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#297Earlier quoted context omitted.
The justification at the time for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was field testing two different novel bomb designs .. the urgency came from Germany's surrender and unavailability to use as a test bed and from the rapid depletion of pristine targets in Japan. The H&N bombings followed close on the heels of bombing 72 other cities (including Tokyo) as part of an ongoing HE + incendiary campaign with list of targets. Th…
Yes, and it's not even like there was a prior plan to use two bombs and see what happened - the military was fully planning to continue the atomic bombings as the cores became available (the third expected to be available by late August). It was only Truman intervening that stopped it at two. It seems, unsurprisingly, that the military didn't really see the atomic bombs as anything other than a really big bomb - it w…
> It seems, unsurprisingly, that the military didn't really see the atomic bombs as anything other than a really big bomb - it was only later that they came to be seen as something qualitatively different
That, arguably, came with advances in delivery methods. A-bombs alone don't end wars. Multiple sides each putting them on advanced bombers and intercontinental missiles, made to hit quickly and be effectively impossible to stop - that's when nuclear weapons graduate from being just bigger bombs to being existential threats and/or tools for keeping world peace.
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#298Maybe we are about to discover that we came to Earth after messing up Mars.
The idea of which makes it even more bizarre that we're trying to leave a literally perfect planet for us for a dead one.
"We" is very loose here. Some (allegedly) humans are trying to leave and propagandizing for funding.
I, for one, am not planning to leave earth anytime soon, thanks.
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am imagining an astronaut digging with a shovel and 2.5 inches below the surface are just dinosaur skeletons and stuff. Or something even more fantastical.
Exactly. There's absolutely no reason to think that advanced life did not exist on Mars except for the lack of evidence. That sounds funny, but the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially in a case like this where the planet has been probably sterilized on a time frame of potentially billions of years. The Great Pyramid of Giza is a massive and extremely hardy structure that will outlast all modern…
Kurzgesagt did a video on this.
Though they discuss how advanced civilizations could have existed on Earth and we might not even know it because there wouldn’t be much left and what was left might be so unusual that we might chalk it up to natural phenomena.
Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are meteorites on Earth which very likely originated from Mars. They're believed to have been launched into space by an impact, eventually finding their way onto Earth. If we're looking for the most realistic options for panspermia to have occurred, they'd be due to a natural event of this sort.
It’s very much like how islands in the sea are colonized by life. Some event causes a blob of living creatures to enter the sea on a raft and they drift until they make landfall somewhere else. Sometimes they survive long enough in the new place to reproduce.
Rats leaping from a sinking ship swimming to shore we were.