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New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

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Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#261
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is an important advance because genesis of life on Earth is getting harder and harder to answer as we gather more evidence. Pushing it to another environment (and longer time frame) does in fact solve a number of problems.

I'd say it just ignores any problems. However, haven't we roughly recreated the process in a lab in the last couple of decades? And we may never have the answer because we simply can't know because no one was there because nothing was there. But there's a plausible enough explanation that we don't need to invoke the extraterrestrial and all of its problems. And I think that's part of the appeal of panspermia, it make…

No there hasn’t been any (successful) abiogenesis experiments yet.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the factual correction. It’s the geothermal (aerothermal?) heat that has decreased by more than the sun’s increasing luminosity, resulting in net temperature loss.

That's wrong too. While geothermal heat is going down, it's doing it very slowly and has very little impact on surface temperature. Earth was on average significantly colder in the past, to the point of there being several "snowball earth" episodes when the entire surface froze over. That's no longer possible, strictly because the Sun is warmer now. Mars was somewhat warmer before, but that was not because of geother…

I was talking about Mars, not Earth. Mars is a lot smaller and cools faster.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#263
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hitler's vice chancellor from 1933 to 1934 and the man who pressured Hindenburg to appoint Hitler to power Are you saying that supporting Hitler before the war should have been a war crime?

I don't see him saying that, so probably not. But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either. Looking at Wikipedia there seems to be something going on with Braun's involvement in forced labour and war prisoners. I don't see an outline of what the problem is; maybe there is something serious but if there is a problem Wikipedia doesn't seem to detail it. If building horrible weapons is a war crime…

>But being a rocket scientist during a war isn't a war crime either.

How familiar are you with jus ad bellum and jus en bello?

Most legal scholars conclude German use of force against the UK was a violation of jus ad bellum and the indiscriminate nature of V-1 and V-2 rockets including their use against civilians was a violation of jus en bello.

The Nuremberg Trials were primarily focused on prosecuting individuals who were deemed to bear the greatest responsibility for the atrocities committed during World War II and the Holocaust.

Many legal scholars of international law and use of armed force agree WvB was should have been tried for the deaths of thousands of forced workers and civilians. His value to the US government definitely saved him, but for that he’d at least have been tried.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#264
I think we can't be certain of the ages of the planets in our solar system. It's based on different things but there's recent uncertainty about the age of the universe, possibly by a factor of two. It's possible the planets in our system are older than we think. Is it also possible they're younger? I'm not an expert on it.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#265
post #216

Imagine the frustration of our martian ancestors upon learning the richest man on earth is trying to go back to they place they originally launched the seeds from.

Imagine their endless frustration as we sailed from place to place felling all the forests to build more ships to sail further afield and fell more forests.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question - unless he was directly involved with the genocide, was he not doing the exact same thing the allies were doing? It’s not a war crime to participate in a war for your country. The US bombed German civilians and Japanese civilians in mass numbers.

A significant chunk of the adult male population of Nazi Germany was involved with the genocide. Hitler made sure there was blood on as many German hands as possible. In retrospect the Allies were extremely lenient [0] on Germany and Japan and they probably could have punished them way, way worse. As for Allied war crimes, many of those were only criminalized after-the-fact. For example, the justification for nuking…

> For example, the justification for nuking Nagasaki was "well, there's a factory nearby, so that's a valid military target".

Erm, what? The justification for nuking nagasaki was that demonstrating overwhelming might would swiftly end the war (it did) while continuing conventional war would cause many more casualties over time.

Maybe you mean to say that because a lot of ships, bombs and military equipment were made there (though it wasn't merely "a factory nearby") they dropped the bomb there rather than somewhere else.

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a...

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#267

I think we can't be certain of the ages of the planets in our solar system. It's based on different things but there's recent uncertainty about the age of the universe, possibly by a factor of two. It's possible the planets in our system are older than we think. Is it also possible they're younger? I'm not an expert on it.

> there’s recent uncertainty about the age of the universe, possibly by a factor of two

Do you have a reference for this? Interesting if potentially true.

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A significant chunk of the adult male population of Nazi Germany was involved with the genocide. Hitler made sure there was blood on as many German hands as possible. In retrospect the Allies were extremely lenient [0] on Germany and Japan and they probably could have punished them way, way worse. As for Allied war crimes, many of those were only criminalized after-the-fact. For example, the justification for nuking…

> For example, the justification for nuking Nagasaki was "well, there's a factory nearby, so that's a valid military target". Erm, what? The justification for nuking nagasaki was that demonstrating overwhelming might would swiftly end the war (it did) while continuing conventional war would cause many more casualties over time. Maybe you mean to say that because a lot of ships, bombs and military equipment were made…

[deleted]

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question - unless he was directly involved with the genocide, was he not doing the exact same thing the allies were doing? It’s not a war crime to participate in a war for your country. The US bombed German civilians and Japanese civilians in mass numbers.

A significant chunk of the adult male population of Nazi Germany was involved with the genocide. Hitler made sure there was blood on as many German hands as possible. In retrospect the Allies were extremely lenient [0] on Germany and Japan and they probably could have punished them way, way worse. As for Allied war crimes, many of those were only criminalized after-the-fact. For example, the justification for nuking…

The justification at the time for nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki was field testing two different novel bomb designs .. the urgency came from Germany's surrender and unavailability to use as a test bed and from the rapid depletion of pristine targets in Japan.

The H&N bombings followed close on the heels of bombing 72 other cities (including Tokyo) as part of an ongoing HE + incendiary campaign with list of targets.

These specific targets were selected for atomic tested as they had not been bombed before and served as "clean" test beds for the before and after comparisons, in addition to having some containing topography.

What's important to remember is that they were selected from a long list of targets that were all scheduled to be bombed, the fact that they were low priority from a military standpoint is what had "saved" then from not already having been bombed.

When Hiroshima was bombed the only prior atomic test at Trinity was on a tower with a lot of external controls .. it wasn't even certain at the time that this would work as a bomb let alone "end the war".

The military compulsion to battlefield test a weapon that had consumed more R&D budget than any ever before in history was intense, and the WW's were rapidly closing out with Germany defeated and Russia closing in on Japan.

After the bombings, immediately after, came a lot of retro fitting justifiction, more so with the Cold War .. but it was never as clear cut and about swift endings and saving casualities as came to be believed.

People forget that atomic bomb or not the US was already committed to levelling all cities within Japan.

For more, and a deeper dive in the many takes on dropping the bomb, see:

https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/03/08/the-decision-to-u...

for example (it has many references to many historic viewpoints)

Re: New findings point to an Earth-like environment on ancient Mars

#270
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nazism and Fascism's brands of ultra rightwing ideology still looms large in part of the world. Not as distinct from basic impulses we can detect in all periods. These terms we use (rightwing, fascist) are new terms for ancient political dispositions. If I describe someone as imperialist, patriarchal, sexist, antisemitic, and racist, am I more likely to be talking about the Nazis, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Abb…

> Not as distinct from basic impulses we can detect in all periods I disagree. Nazism and Fascism are largely influential today but Caesar isn't. > My understanding of human psychology does not incline me to think this is a remotely successful strategy. I cannot vouch for your understanding. I do know Nazism and Fascism must be loudly denounced whenever found. They must not be allowed to fester in the darkness.

Add in communism and religious fundamentalism and I think you’ve just about covered it.
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