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Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

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Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#91

Post by MetaWhirledPeas »

weinzierl wrote: post #37

The layout in the article is on a split ortho keyboard and I think this is the best arrangement for a modern keyboard. What I think is not so obvious is, that the staggering makes traditional non-split keyboards bearable, because it allows to touch type with both hands at a slight angle. At least this is true when using the European fingering. In the US version the number row is awkward to type with angled hands.

> because it allows to touch type with both hands at a slight angle

I see this sort of thing repeated and I always feel compelled to disagree. I'm sitting here typing on a mono-ortho board and I can choose to angle my wrists or not angle my wrists. That part has nothing to do with the choice of ortho or stagger.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#92

Post by rpmisms »

bloopernova wrote: post #7

I would like to see something that records your keystrokes and gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a keyboard arrangement to start from. Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk? Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes? Edited to add: Does anyone daily-drive a Keyboardio Model 100? I really liked the concept and participated in the kickstarter, but unfortunatel…

If you want a privacy-compatible logger, simply record every two-key sequence with a counter on each. That way, order is obscured, but you have a relational graph.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#93

Post by weinzierl »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #91
weinzierl wrote: post #37

The layout in the article is on a split ortho keyboard and I think this is the best arrangement for a modern keyboard. What I think is not so obvious is, that the staggering makes traditional non-split keyboards bearable, because it allows to touch type with both hands at a slight angle. At least this is true when using the European fingering. In the US version the number row is awkward to type with angled hands.

> because it allows to touch type with both hands at a slight angle I see this sort of thing repeated and I always feel compelled to disagree. I'm sitting here typing on a mono-ortho board and I can choose to angle my wrists or not angle my wrists. That part has nothing to do with the choice of ortho or stagger.

If you strech out your fingers from your angled wrist they will follow the angle because the joints in our fingers have only a single degree of freedom. Do you reach for the key vertically above and below or do you angle your wrist 45° and reach for the diagonals?

With a staggered layout the angle is somewhere between and similar to what most people angle their split halves.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#94

Post by taeric »

jryb wrote: post #29
bloopernova wrote: post #7

I would like to see something that records your keystrokes and gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a keyboard arrangement to start from. Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk? Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes? Edited to add: Does anyone daily-drive a Keyboardio Model 100? I really liked the concept and participated in the kickstarter, but unfortunatel…

You don't need a keylogger. Just take some things you've written and count the characters. It won't be exact since it excludes rewrites but the distribution should be very close.

If you do go down this rabbit hole, you probably want to optimize hand alternation. That is, it is not enough to keep the high value letters home row, you probably want to split them between hands, while keeping them home row. Similarly, the slowest combinations of characters will be the ones that force a finger to go from top to bottom row. On qwerty, as an example, 'cemetery' would be pretty bad for the opening two letters.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#95

Post by luqtas »

bloopernova wrote: post #7

I would like to see something that records your keystrokes and gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a keyboard arrangement to start from. Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk? Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes? Edited to add: Does anyone daily-drive a Keyboardio Model 100? I really liked the concept and participated in the kickstarter, but unfortunatel…

if you run QMK & have a Teensy board; https://precondition.github.io/qmk-heatmap

if you don't, https://github.com/suurjaak/InputScope ... you can even track key presses per app!

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#96

Post by brokenmachine »

bluGill wrote: post #23
bloopernova wrote: post #7

I would like to see something that records your keystrokes and gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a keyboard arrangement to start from. Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk? Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes? Edited to add: Does anyone daily-drive a Keyboardio Model 100? I really liked the concept and participated in the kickstarter, but unfortunatel…

The problem with that - the same problem layouts like Dvorak have but worse - is that I sometimes have to use other computers. Any custom layout will be great for me - once I put forth the effort to learn it of course, but since it will only be for me nobody else can use my computer (This computer I'm using now I don't care as only I touch it). However I have computers that others in my family also use, computers at…

Also on your phone/tablet.

I use dvorak so the first thing I have to do when I get a new phone is to install an alternative keyboard.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#97

Post by jryb »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #82
jryb wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a keylogger. Just take some things you've written and count the characters. It won't be exact since it excludes rewrites but the distribution should be very close.

I'd like to also include keyboard shortcuts and commands that don't end up in recorded text.

At least for any defined set of layouts, you could infer what those other keypresses would be and compare their efficiencies. Still a compromise but it satisfies all the security issues.

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#98

Post by MetaWhirledPeas »

weinzierl wrote: post #93
MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because it allows to touch type with both hands at a slight angle I see this sort of thing repeated and I always feel compelled to disagree. I'm sitting here typing on a mono-ortho board and I can choose to angle my wrists or not angle my wrists. That part has nothing to do with the choice of ortho or stagger.

If you strech out your fingers from your angled wrist they will follow the angle because the joints in our fingers have only a single degree of freedom. Do you reach for the key vertically above and below or do you angle your wrist 45° and reach for the diagonals? With a staggered layout the angle is somewhere between and similar to what most people angle their split halves.

With a staggered layout the right hand digits align with the columns and the left hand does the opposite; it's at nearly a 90 degree angle! So if you believe wrist angle follows the keys then staggered would be far worse.

I don't think wrist angle follows the keys. You simply move your hands and fingers to hit the proper key regardless of wrist angle. No alignment necessary. So then the benefit of ortho becomes the ability to judge the placement of the keys better by feel, particularly the top row. (And it has the side benefit of allowing you to map a numpad over the keys more naturally, which is particularly attractive to me.)

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#99

Post by eviks »

jryb wrote: post #29
bloopernova wrote: post #7

I would like to see something that records your keystrokes and gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a keyboard arrangement to start from. Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk? Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes? Edited to add: Does anyone daily-drive a Keyboardio Model 100? I really liked the concept and participated in the kickstarter, but unfortunatel…

You don't need a keylogger. Just take some things you've written and count the characters. It won't be exact since it excludes rewrites but the distribution should be very close.

This bad approach is why backspace and cursors keys are ignored in many layouts because they don't appear in the text corpus, which is a bigger issue than rewrites

You do need a keylogger, and a context-aware one at that for proper analysis, otherwise it's better to just use an existing layout, won't get much extra from personal corpus anyway, so not worth the effort to do a poor personalized analysis

Re: Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)

#100

Post by eviks »

bradley13 wrote: post #11
dustincoates wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not least of which is the fact that that only your computer has your weird keyboard. Fair, but how often are most people typing on someone else's computer? (Outside of developers who do pairing.)

For me, it somehow happens all the time. Helping out co-workers, friends or family. Using a different workstation than usual (we no longer have assigned desks). Sure, you can mentally "switch" layouts, but it's a pain. Then there's the reverse: My PC at home - wife wants to check something quickly without turning on her PC. Finally: I regularly use both a PC and a laptop. Depending on how weird you want the layout to…

The reverse is solved with a single button activating the default qwerty layout?

The direct with family is similar - you can have an extra layout installed

So the leaves even fewer cases where you really have to switch (but unfortunately not 0, no easy mechanisms to just easily switch to a some downloadable layout named after you on the fly at any computer)

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