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The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

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Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#211

Post by paulmd »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #183
paulmd wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody provides SMS levels of interop on unrestricted internet messaging platforms because the experience sucks. Running the IM equivalent of an open SMTP relay is a ghastly experience for users. You literally have to gatekeep because the alternative is going back to circa-2000 levels of spam. Deep down you know exactly what would happen because we’ve all lived it with spam voice calls again recently - we’ve been try…

> You literally have to gatekeep because the alternative is going back to circa-2000 levels of spam. The vast majority of spam is explicitly permitted by Google. What are you talking about? Do you not use e-mail? They have a Promotions tab, they could make spam - that is, marketing emails - go away in an afternoon, if they wanted to. They just don't, because those same companies are Google Ads customers.

> The vast majority of spam is explicitly permitted by Google. What are you talking about?

It is certainly not lmao - try sending mail to google from your own smtp server on your own doma

Seeing some spam occasionally doesn’t mean the vast majority isn’t being rej

> They have a Promotions tab, they could make spam - that is, marketing emails - go away in an afternoon, if they wanted to.

opting into newsletters is explicitly not spam, so either you don’t understand the basics of being on the internet or you’re arguing in bad faith.

Which is probably also implied by the “I saw a spam once therefore google runs an open SMTP relay” take honestly. You know that’s not true either. We both know you know. Why are you doing this?

again:

Google doesn’t provide your desired standard of openness either, in their own oligopolistic fiefs/gatekeeper domains like gmail. And everyone understand why it’s a bad idea. Forced open interop is an unworkable idea and forcing an unworkable idea on iMessage is the whole goal. Flooding iMessage with spam 2000s-style by forcing an “open relay” into the system is the whole point, whether you realize it or not.

Just like forcing “choice of browser” was never about giving users freedom either - but about wiping away the last counterbalance against chrome’s dominance/monopoly in the browser market. Hence the flood of shit like web integrity and adtech ever since.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#212

Post by t43562 »

cjk2 wrote: post #90
joecot wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have yet to find anyone outside the tech industry who actually knows or gives a crap. Lots of school kids who get mocked for being "Green Texters" with crummy images and videos in their group texts. They really want their parents to shell out for an iPhone so it stops. Just because non-tech people don't know the cause, doesn't mean it doesn't affect them.

I'm not in the US but this is not a thing anywhere in the UK at least. Everyone uses WhatsApp. Same with all my friends in Europe. Same with my kids and their friends, although they all seem to be on SnapChat more than anything. Actually we don't even tend to bother even talking about which phones you have. It's just meh. My best friend doesn't even know what iMessage is as an example.

It's very much a problem that Whatsapp isn't using an open protocol IMO. I really want to use Signal for my family and yet one has to jump from app to app to talk to other people.

It's ridiculous - all I'm asking is for the convenience of email.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#213

Post by fsflover »

sircastor wrote: post #27
pfannkuchen wrote: post #18

One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned in discussions of communications tech monopoly (or “monopoly” in many cases) is the risk of future political censorship by a hypothetical future evil Apple. Centralized market power here isn’t just about unfair profits or bad products, it’s also about control of information (and therefore control of minds).

I think this is because we haven’t really seen it. Though there is a subset of the right wing that’s been saying exactly this is happening, to them in the context of Facebook and Twitter. I don’t recall seeing any convincing evidence though.

AFAIK we did see how Apple banned political apps in China and Russia.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#214

Post by WWLink »

fidotron wrote: post #16

The thing people love forgetting is a huge part of the iPhone success is based on the North American cellular comms industry being a trustless disaster area. The deal Apple did with AT&T opened the floodgates. Android was initially designed so that operators could customise it. The idea was apps were developed (and sold) only by operators, and everything else would be via the browser. If you had used a Nokia device i…

> People keep having to learn that developers cannot be trusted either

The problem with this is that Apple is also a developer trying to sell you things. I would feel better if Apple's goals and the user's goals were aligned all the time instead of just some of the time.

Admittedly, Apple's real priority is just to make money on every transaction that occurs upon an idevice.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#215

Post by zer00eyz »

joecot wrote: post #72
cjk2 wrote: post #3

I’ve got to be honest while I appreciate the direction they are forced in, I have yet to find anyone outside the tech industry who actually knows or gives a crap. Also the only reason Epic and Spotify are after them is not some altruistic reason but they want to be the guys charging the 30% margin. It’s a bit of a grey victory but I’ll take it.

> I have yet to find anyone outside the tech industry who actually knows or gives a crap. Lots of school kids who get mocked for being "Green Texters" with crummy images and videos in their group texts. They really want their parents to shell out for an iPhone so it stops. Just because non-tech people don't know the cause, doesn't mean it doesn't affect them.

Because those same kids aren't going to get mocked for the brand of clothing (or lack there of) that they wear?

Using something as an excuse to be a piece of shit is not the same as giving a crap. This isnt an example of a good reason to do this.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#216

Post by HDThoreaun »

zer00eyz wrote: post #215
joecot wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have yet to find anyone outside the tech industry who actually knows or gives a crap. Lots of school kids who get mocked for being "Green Texters" with crummy images and videos in their group texts. They really want their parents to shell out for an iPhone so it stops. Just because non-tech people don't know the cause, doesn't mean it doesn't affect them.

Because those same kids aren't going to get mocked for the brand of clothing (or lack there of) that they wear? Using something as an excuse to be a piece of shit is not the same as giving a crap. This isnt an example of a good reason to do this.

I was a kid not too long ago and no one gave a shit about a single luxury item other than iPhones. People who had fancy stuff were generally made fun of, the cool kids all wore stuff from the thrift store

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#217

Post by zer00eyz »

hu3 wrote: post #103
op00to wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMS still works fine. No one is forced to purchase an iPhone because they want to message someone.

In US, green bubble social peer-pressure does force many teens to buy iPhones.

By this rational the government should be forcing nike to part with the Jordan brand so someone can make a discount version that every one can buy.

Changing the color of the bubbles would just shift the shitty behavior to another product.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#218

Post by tammer »

I’ve come full circle on this but I now think native applications on smartphones was a mistake.

There is no technological reason why applications can’t be distributed as PWA packages similar to the days prior to the App Store.

This would serve two important functions:

1. Remove most if not all distribution monopoly concerns

2. Create application standards that function nearly identically across the myriad of screen sizes and input types that are now available.

The current status quo of some service that makes my life easier or better only being available in a browser or only available on one or two of my devices (or, most often, available in a few ways but only bug-free or full-featured in only one method of access) isn’t the future I want.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#219

Post by labcomputer »

fr4nkr wrote: post #181
fidotron wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you want is to remove the option of safety from those that want it because you personally do not see the need for it. iOS is not close to a monopoly. People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them. It is curious that the campaigning focuses so strongly on destroying the high trust part that exists and not on promoting a trusted setup on Android.

> People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them. And people who do not like "unsafe" technology are perfectly free to not use it at all. If you make something idiot-proof, they will simply provide a better idiot.

> And people who do not like "unsafe" technology are perfectly free to not use it at all.

Not if legislators make it illegal to sell an alternative…

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#220

Post by t43562 »

alangibson wrote: post #65
rootusrootus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU would let them and good riddance as far as we're concerned. But there is this pesky notion that it's a huge market and Apple earns a lot of money there. So, they really can't walk away from that. Does that not seem contradictory to you? If it's a huge market they make a lot of money in, then there's by definition a lot of people who don't think "good riddance" if they leave. Apple has more leverage than you…

American living in Europe here. in the EU, you can't just apply economic logic to everything like you can in the US. Policymakers will absolutely piss off a huge number of people over some basic principle. Look for instance at Germany's willingness to burn it's industrial base to the ground over Ukraine.

They only do that because it has worked for them. They've done it and survived, which makes me think they haven't actually pissed off that many people.
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