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The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

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Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#181

Post by fr4nkr »

fidotron wrote: post #139
lupusreal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice history lesson but sideloading alternate appstores (namely F-Droid) on Android works great and Apple shouldn't be allowed to forbid the same on iOS. And I don't give a damn about the "grandma conned into sideloading scam apps" scenario. Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway.

So what you want is to remove the option of safety from those that want it because you personally do not see the need for it. iOS is not close to a monopoly. People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them. It is curious that the campaigning focuses so strongly on destroying the high trust part that exists and not on promoting a trusted setup on Android.

> People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them.

And people who do not like "unsafe" technology are perfectly free to not use it at all.

If you make something idiot-proof, they will simply provide a better idiot.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#182

Post by VelesDude »

pmarreck wrote: post #36
s1k3s wrote: post #5

> Apple executive Eddy Cue pushed for an Android iMessage app in 2016, but Craig Federighi responded in an internal email that “iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove an obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones.” This conversation happened 8 years ago and it was about a product released 12 years ago. If anything, this shows how slow regulators are before they take any action and how they…

> “iMessage on Android would simply serve to remove an obstacle to iPhone families giving their kids Android phones.” This statement says a few extra things that Craig Federighi probably didn't realize he was saying. 1) It suggests that the iPhone wouldn't be able to hold its own in a market where interoperability with Android was easier. That demonstrates a lack of faith in it. 2) I've noticed that any time a corpor…

Regarding No 2. That is very true but it is astounding just how much inertia is in the system that keeps iPhone going.

Turns out that the curated experience of iPhone combined with a lot of fumbles from various android vendors has kept iPhone image of being the best and most desirable phone.

It is very vaguely feeling like if another big player was to come in they could actually make some waves that causes everyone else to jump. To the benefit of the users. But I doubt that will happen.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#183

Post by doctorpangloss »

paulmd wrote: post #168
talldayo wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so; it doesn't really matter when you're looking at damages. It's Apple's job to solve interoperability with their own platform, and not only have they failed to provide SMS-levels of interop, they actively work against it to promote ulterior products. It's exactly the sort of anticompetitive bundling that harms the market without improving competition. Maybe Ma Bell's success was in-part due to their free long…

Nobody provides SMS levels of interop on unrestricted internet messaging platforms because the experience sucks. Running the IM equivalent of an open SMTP relay is a ghastly experience for users. You literally have to gatekeep because the alternative is going back to circa-2000 levels of spam. Deep down you know exactly what would happen because we’ve all lived it with spam voice calls again recently - we’ve been try…

> You literally have to gatekeep because the alternative is going back to circa-2000 levels of spam.

The vast majority of spam is explicitly permitted by Google. What are you talking about? Do you not use e-mail? They have a Promotions tab, they could make spam - that is, marketing emails - go away in an afternoon, if they wanted to. They just don't, because those same companies are Google Ads customers.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#184

Post by VelesDude »

beeboobaa3 wrote: post #33
pfannkuchen wrote: post #18

One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned in discussions of communications tech monopoly (or “monopoly” in many cases) is the risk of future political censorship by a hypothetical future evil Apple. Centralized market power here isn’t just about unfair profits or bad products, it’s also about control of information (and therefore control of minds).

Especially considering how these big tech companies seem obsessed with gobbling up communication, and seem to want all of their users communication to go through them. Sure, Apple makes grandiose statements about its security and privacy. But they are protecting you from others. Apple has the keys to the kingdom and if they want they can just silently push a targeted software update to your device. They can make your…

Apple, we "care about privacy". But we will take billions of dollar every year to keep your data funneled towards Google via the defaults.

Steve Jobs was barely out the door before Cook ran to allow PRISM access, something Job's had fought against for years.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#185

Post by simonh »

pompino wrote: post #142
fidotron wrote: post #16

The thing people love forgetting is a huge part of the iPhone success is based on the North American cellular comms industry being a trustless disaster area. The deal Apple did with AT&T opened the floodgates. Android was initially designed so that operators could customise it. The idea was apps were developed (and sold) only by operators, and everything else would be via the browser. If you had used a Nokia device i…

The only thing Apple cares about is Apple making more money. they will gladly gouge the end User so that their executives can line their pockets. there is nobody here you can actually ”trust”.

However for Apple to keep making money they need to satisfy their users, so as with all commercial relationships there is a direct commercial incentive that aligns customer and vendor interests. The interesting question is how and why those interests align, and when and where they diverge.

The answer to that will be different for different customers, or potential customers. A lot of iPhone customers like me are quite happy with the devices more or less as they are. The vast majority of people complaining about iPhones aren't iPhone customers. Frankly I don't really see why I should care what they think.

I'm more sympathetic to actual iPhone customers, or former customers that left, but looking at the numbers satisfaction levels with iPhones are through the roof. This is a teeny tiny proportion of customers. The case for Apple harming the interests of customers directly is super thin.

The other main dimension to this is Apple's commercial relations with other companies, mainly app store developers. I'm sympathetic to the idea that such relationships should be regulated to at least some extent. I'm glad controls on links to external payment options are being opened up, and there's pressure towards more equitable revenue structures. I think this is the main area Apple's control of the platform is open to abuse, but IMHO that doesn't extend to third party app stores. The current app store should be properly regulated, I think third party stores are a complete distraction. They'll never take off, and are probably going to be a worse experience for users.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#186

Post by lynndotpy »

gretch wrote: post #162
lynndotpy wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a take; it's simply a description, and it's accurate. There is a significant and undeniable social pressure for young people in the US to have an iPhone. If you can't use iMessage, you'll simply be excluded from group chats. Speaking exclusively from the cross-platform perspective, things are better nowadays with the expectation of Instagram and Discord, but you'll still be excluded from group chats for not…

I think it’s weird that governments would regulate a company on behalf of this reason. A bunch of teens got together and decided that some things were social stigma aren’t. I’m sure there’s some schools where you can’t be included unless you are wearing Abercrombie clothing, or have a MK purse. Is it time to step in there too?

> A bunch of teens got together and decided

No, they did not. There is no teenage illuminati pulling the strings. The green bubble phenomena appeared throughout teen social life as iPhones became widely adopted.

> I’m sure there’s some schools where you can’t be included unless you are wearing Abercrombie clothing, or have a MK purse.

These are imagined phenomena which don't have bearing on the real phenomenon in question.

> Is it time to step in there too?

No. If there comes a time where Abercrombie and control widely used social infrastructure, in a way that prohibits non-Abercrombie wearers from participating through technological means, resulting a widely-acknowledged negative social phenomenon, then that'll be time to step in there.

But the Abercrombie thing is imagined, and the iPhone thing is real and has been happening for a decade.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#187

Post by FireBeyond »

fidotron wrote: post #139
lupusreal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice history lesson but sideloading alternate appstores (namely F-Droid) on Android works great and Apple shouldn't be allowed to forbid the same on iOS. And I don't give a damn about the "grandma conned into sideloading scam apps" scenario. Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway.

So what you want is to remove the option of safety from those that want it because you personally do not see the need for it. iOS is not close to a monopoly. People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them. It is curious that the campaigning focuses so strongly on destroying the high trust part that exists and not on promoting a trusted setup on Android.

Grandma doesn't have to install an alternate app store or sideload apps, and she can sill rely on the same "high trust" environment that allows for apps like "LassPass" to scam her in the Apple App Store.

Hell, when she is scammed, Apple apologists will tell her it's not really that bad, and to get off Apple's case about it...

Gruber:

> Instead, the scam LassPass app tries to steer you to creating a “pro” account subscription for $2/month, $10/year, or a $50 lifetime purchase. Those are actually low prices for a scam app — a lot of scammy apps try to charge like $10/week.

(emphasis mine)

Lucky people, I guess? They could have been scammed for more?

He also claims, without any way to know, that "it doesn't look like this was made to steal LastPass credentials".

The whole article is very much a "yeah it sucks and shouldn't happen, but this is no big deal, really, why are you getting all up in Apple's face about it?" vibe.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#188

Post by pessimizer »

fidotron wrote: post #139
lupusreal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice history lesson but sideloading alternate appstores (namely F-Droid) on Android works great and Apple shouldn't be allowed to forbid the same on iOS. And I don't give a damn about the "grandma conned into sideloading scam apps" scenario. Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway.

So what you want is to remove the option of safety from those that want it because you personally do not see the need for it. iOS is not close to a monopoly. People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them. It is curious that the campaigning focuses so strongly on destroying the high trust part that exists and not on promoting a trusted setup on Android.

That's like talking about "removing the option" of slavery. Nobody is proposing keeping you from working for free, or from strictly using apps approved by and distributed from Apple.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#189

Post by VelesDude »

Bjorkbat wrote: post #14

Something I keep thinking about is how we’re seeing the end of what I call the “tech zeitgeist”. Started upon realizing that we‘ve likely seen the end of the social network era. No new social networking startups have popped-off in a while, and the recent ones are arguably more about connecting you to entertainers than friends. Besides that, a lot of the tech ideas from 2012-2020 have kind of fizzled out. 3D printing…

It was bound to happen. Think about it. What was the last big application on the Desktop? Chrome in 2008 is probably the last.

The last really big advance in apps? Big new social media as you said? New communication paradigm.

Heck Smart watches where the real last big technology device and. Their sales while yes in the hundreds of millions are a shadow compared with things like smart phones.

I think we are seeing the entire industry calcifying around us. And a lot of folks know this. Thus the rush from a subset of folks that are trying to get in on the ground floor of anything tech like that they can possible pump and dump their way to riches. Crypto, NFS, AI over hype, VR, AR, Web 3 etc.

Soon we may have to accept that we are going form the fun fresh upstart stage to mature stable and boring faze. The entire tech industry will be IBM.

Re: The walls of Apple's garden are tumbling down

#190

Post by gretch »

lynndotpy wrote: post #186
gretch wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s weird that governments would regulate a company on behalf of this reason. A bunch of teens got together and decided that some things were social stigma aren’t. I’m sure there’s some schools where you can’t be included unless you are wearing Abercrombie clothing, or have a MK purse. Is it time to step in there too?

> A bunch of teens got together and decided No, they did not. There is no teenage illuminati pulling the strings. The green bubble phenomena appeared throughout teen social life as iPhones became widely adopted. > I’m sure there’s some schools where you can’t be included unless you are wearing Abercrombie clothing, or have a MK purse. These are imagined phenomena which don't have bearing on the real phenomenon in que…

I assure it is not imagined as I attended public high school in the United States.
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