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FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

nytimes.com

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Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware that Arizona recently reinstated an abortion ban from 1864? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/09/us/arizona-abortion-ban.h...

did they actually reinstate? isnt it just that newer legislation was made illegal, and it DEFAULTED back to this, where there is proposals by republicans to make legislation that in many ways mirrors most EU countries, but that is unacceptable to the democrats?

"just that".... the newer legislation was made illegal by Republicans, and Republicans decided the 1864 law is still valid. This is how you roll back the country 160 years. And it's not just that this particular law is literally from 1864, it's that even new laws are mirroring these 160 year old laws. Many have no exception for rape, incest, or the life of the mother [1]. That's barbaric.

The reason that Democrats find all of this unacceptable is that Republicans have either failed to anticipate the chaotic consequences of their actions, or -- as they argue in court in support for jail terms for people who have abortions, and that doctors should not have exception in the case of life of the mother or rape -- that they intend the chaos and resulting harm to women. As people suffer and die due to their actions, it's not hard to see why rolling back laws to 1864 is objectionable to Democrats.

I appreciate you bringing up EU countries, but if we are striving to emulate them, we should strive to match their maternal mortality rates by providing adequate healthcare to pregnant people [2]. Instead, by upending abortion rights in this country, we are worsening these trends. You can't use the EU as a benchmark if you're not willing to implement EU-like healthcare and social services in the US.

[1] https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/a-revie...

[2] https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2...

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I watched your video -- it's media personalities babbling. Yup, but maybe it and related media stuff is responsible for much of the anti-Trump opinions there are. I thought the collection was outrageous, insulting, and dirty politics but settled on it being entertaining. > rape A NY jury found Trump guilty of WHAT with his fingers? If Trump entered Carroll's dressing room, she was supposed to scream loudly enough t…

> A NY jury found Trump guilty of WHAT with his fingers? Rape. I linked to the court's opinion stating this. What the judge makes clear is that "rape" as a matter of law in NY is with a penis only. That Trump raped was with his fingers does not make his rape any less rape. The jury’s unanimous verdict in Carroll II was almost entirely in favor of Ms. Carroll. The only point on which Ms. Carroll did not prevail was wh…

This rape stuff makes no sense: Before seeing your quote, I saw it myself when I looked at the PDF, and it sounds like Trump was convicted of finger rape. But then there is the statement I referenced:

"Despite Carroll’s claims that Trump had raped her, they noted, the jury stopped short of saying he committed that particular offense. Instead, jurors opted for a second option: sexual abuse."

So, sounds like the jury didn't say "rape", with either penis or fingers and only "sexual abuse".

Finally, the whole Carroll thing, I don't believe it -- Trump is not that stupid. What I believe is the $130,000.

For Georgia, sure, in principle and thankfully, it is up to the Georgia Secretary of State and the Governor, in principle. But it sure looks like that hate Trump prosecutor and her boyfriend are 99% of the reality there.

For the Arizona case, right, there are the charges that somehow near the end of his term, he went around the country doing something illegal complaining about the integrity of the election. So, he went around complaining. And maybe he had some coffee with Kelli. That should be no crime. And, with the Judge Merchant and Bragg case, there is a lot of lawfare going on. Trump did something illegal in Arizona???? Naw.

Again, the J6 committee was 99 44/100% Democrat propaganda.

The recounts, etc. -- if it was just counting again some crooked ballots, then that doesn't mean anything. The Chinese paper thing, then the changes for Covid thing, all looks like maybe something valid. I saw more accusations, e.g., trucks of fake mail-in ballots arriving late at night, but the information is too thin to take seriously. So, if there was cheating, I don't know how it was done.

Maybe the bottom line is "Politics is dirty business" and differs mostly only in how dirty. At this point, with the lawfare, the Democrats look like the dirty ones and look especially dirty since 2020.

Thanks for your materials. Apparently you believe those materials mean more than I do, but maybe they mean something.

For the 50:1 case outcome, looks like NO ONE in power wanted to open that possible Pandora's Box.

With the current lawfare Florida to Maine, it looks like the Democrats are going after Trump any way they can. That makes the legal cases you referenced questionable. The Democrats have a lot of power and money, and they can file lots of lawfare cases, and it looks like that's what they have been doing. I expect that some judges will retire, some higher courts will jump in and hose out the crap, some lawyers will be disbarred, and Trump will win all the cases. Why? In the lawfare, the main goal is not to convict Trump but just to tie him up in court, cost him a lot of time, money, and energy, sow doubt among some voters, and keep him off the campaign trail until 11/5/2024. The Democrats are calling the fire trucks. For that there doesn't have to be a fire or even smoke, and there isn't.

For 2024, Trump promises to have enough lawyers, poll watchers, etc. to have high election integrity. Maybe we will get some more information on how the Democrats try to cheat.

Look, there is something in this whole mud wrestling ring more certain and wrong than any of the actual legal accusations against Trump -- the Democrat's lawfare attack on Trump.

I was glad to get your references -- the DC one is a riot, a scream: As the PDF explains, he was fully within his rights to object to the 2020 election BUUUUUT: They are going to charge him anyway with, what, confusing the politics, the public????? Gads. That's not even up to the kangaroo level.

There is nothing to stop the Democrats from executing lawfare, but we don't have to grant that the objections are valid or that Trump did anything wrong. The Bragg case is a new low in the US justice system. Same for the 1/2 $billion fine.

As sometimes said in courts, there is a "pattern" here.

Actually, Trump is not even accused of doing anything seriously wrong.

Good to see, I'm not making a serious error in judgment liking Trump.

Thanks.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#433
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proponents of net neutrality thought without it ISPs would just arbitrarily block data and require bribes from data providers to even serve up their data. In reality, no net neutrality would mean things like Netflix not counting as data on your mobile plan through some kind of sponsorship, or free basic internet like Wikipedia and news at a lower cost. I don't support legislation that bans something undertaken vo…

> free basic internet like Wikipedia and news at a lower cost. I can't comprehend why you think ISPs would feel compelled to be so altruistic without any government intervention. Except, since when was free wi-fi an impossible thing to find? Ever been to a coffee shop? Even in the "free shitty half-internet for everyone" pipe dream, the costs of such a service don't just magically disappear. Either way, someone's pay…

> I can't comprehend why you think ISPs would feel compelled to be so altruistic without any government intervention.

Price discrimination. No altruism necessary. Kind of like my isp offering me different speeds.

Meta tried to offer free limited internet to poor rural Indians but idealistic tech workers from wealthy neighborhoods opposed it on moral grounds since it was against net neutrality so then they got no internet

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-india-rejected-facebooks-...

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#435
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proponents of net neutrality thought without it ISPs would just arbitrarily block data and require bribes from data providers to even serve up their data. In reality, no net neutrality would mean things like Netflix not counting as data on your mobile plan through some kind of sponsorship, or free basic internet like Wikipedia and news at a lower cost. I don't support legislation that bans something undertaken vo…

I'd genuinely like to understand why you think corporations, whose success is measured by profit and basically nothing else, are more likely to do things that are good for people than governments, whose success is measured at least a little bit by the wellbeing of their constituents. I really want to better understand the thinking of people who hold opinions like yours.

It’s easier for me to switch which business I give my money to than it is for me to move or change governments. Most of the services I use are provided by private industry and I have choices. Everything from food, clothing, shelter. All private corporations I choose to buy from. I guess I can go get my food from a government soup kitchen or apply for government housing but my experience is these services are not competitive with private market even at the lower price (or free)

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#437
post #236

I'm fully in support of net neutrality, but I'm somewhat surprised they're restoring it, as I have not really heard a peep about it since it was repealed in the first place. From my perspective, nothing about the internet changed since then (my experience did not upgrade or downgrade). People stopped talking about it, there weren't major protests, news about it even largely disappeared from the front page of HN (!).…

The proponents of net neutrality thought without it ISPs would just arbitrarily block data and require bribes from data providers to even serve up their data. In reality, no net neutrality would mean things like Netflix not counting as data on your mobile plan through some kind of sponsorship, or free basic internet like Wikipedia and news at a lower cost. I don't support legislation that bans something undertaken vo…

> In reality, no net neutrality would mean things like Netflix not counting as data on your mobile plan through some kind of sponsorship, or free basic internet like Wikipedia and news at a lower cost.

You seem pretty pro-free-market, so here's the free-market angle: things like zero-rated Netflix on your mobile plan and free "basic" internet are market distortions. Companies are abusing the lack of net neutrality to engage in bundling, discounting, and collusion practices, which are bad for you as a consumer - these are anti-competitive practices!

Everyone likes getting something for cheap/free, but that doesn't mean that it's actually good for you, other people, the market, or society as a whole.

I agree that most of the bad things that net neutrality advocates predicted would happen wouldn't, but the things that did happen are still bad.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#438
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope nope nope. Political parties are good . 2 incumbent political parties in a permanent grapple is what is bad. Politics is a "team sport", by which I don't mean it must a facile context practiced by west-wing-loving weirdos, but that is is a fundamentally collective effort. Americans love to think political parties are inherently bad, but seriously when are mere individuals reliable? How the hell am I supposed to…

Nah, parties are bad. They perfectly exemplify the adage about people dedicated to the ostensible mission of the organization vs. those dedicated to the organization as an end it itself. With formalized parties, we often see the strategic concerns of the party as an organization eclipse any coherent policy goals that are the ostensible reason for the party existing in the first place. Multi-party in particular democr…

> They perfectly exemplify the adage about people dedicated to the ostensible mission of the organization vs. those dedicated to the organization as an end it itself.

The same argument cuts both ways. Individuals can be corrupted by personal ambition versus sticking to a mission too.

> With formalized parties, we often see the strategic concerns of the party as an organization eclipse any coherent policy goals that are the ostensible reason for the party existing in the first place.

This is because there is no marketplace of parties. There is are just two, and we are stuck with them --- they are more akin to coalitions to parties in a multiparty than individual parties in a multiparty system. The monopoly/incumbency problems this creates are the same ones we see in commerce when there is a dearth of firm creation/failure, and the zombies live on.

> Multi-party in particular democracy has some significant pitfalls, including the tendency of marginal and extremist parties to play kingmaker. The historian Hannah Arendt made some salient points about how the multi-party structure of Weimar Germany contributed directly to the radicalization and eventual total control of the state by the Nazis.

There is that risk, but it is not like the US's system has protected us well from extremism either. When politics as usual gets discredited, we see both the rise of radical non-partisanship and parties shifting to the extreme.

I would not expect multiparty democracy to protect us from stupid as colossally stupid as the Treaty of Versaille, and neither should Hanna Ardent. US policy towards West Germany and Japan is the much better model of dealing with defeated enemies.

> Politics will always involve factions forming around shared interests or values, but in a situation without those factions being calcified into formal organizations, or even identities, we'd expect them to be much more fluid and ephemeral, and for politicians to be much more willing to reach across ideological divides without worrying about institutional discipline or being ostracized by the party establishment regardless of their constituents' opinions.

Again this all sounds nice in principle, but we are not seeing that in any extent political system. Large parties and small parties both have plenty of rhetorical dogmatism and inflexibility. But at least small parties can outflank large incumbents, bringing together constituents in hitherto unexpected ways. Stuff like YIMBYism, for example, which doesn't neatly fit into either US party is really screwed over by having to win through the "long slow march through the primaries", rather than create a nimble new party with cross-spectrum appeal.

> Ranked-choice balloting wouldn't eliminate parties per se, but it would reduce their influence in the electoral process significantly.

You need to provide more evidence for this. Campaigning is expensive. The returns on consistent messaging increase with scale (e.g. ingraining strains of through, moving the Overton window, etc.)

> I'd expect a reasonable voter to investigate the actual candidates on the ballot and make an informed choice, and not merely rely on party affiliation as the only criterion for casting a vote.

With enough work, one can learn about individual, but what enforces that those individuals are consistent? Firstly. The incentives for politicians, especially minor ones, are to avoid making enemies more than make friends --- they don't want you to know how they feel. Secondly, and more importantly, they have zero incentive to consistently feel anything as the political landscape and space of compromises shape-shifts.

You talk about reaching across the aisle as an unvarnished good thing, but as a voter there some deals are really worth it, and some deals are not worth it --- not all deals/compromises are good.

When individuals are fickle and nebulous, there is no way to vote on individuals that adequately conveys this sort of information. We can say "vote for good character", but that is feel-good dribble.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#439

I’m very surprised by some of the comments here questioning the value of restoring net neutrality. Times have changed.

It's probably because none of the hysterics or doomsday propaganda actually came to pass.

Hm. I would encourage a different, less intense angle here. It’s possible the doomsday didn’t come to pass because a lot of passionate people worked very hard to make sure we avoided it.

Re: FCC votes to restore net neutrality rules

#440

Interesting to see this come through effectively at the same time as the law granting powers that allows the government to ban TikTok and others in the future. I can't help but assume there's a connection there. I also don't know why the new law allowing a ban on foreign influenced social media would be necessary if the FCC decides again that it can regulate ISPs as utilities. Weren't the powers there already strong…

Your assumption is wrong. The net neutrality fight is older than TikTok. The process for this vote started in September. It would have started in 2021 if Biden's FCC nominee was approved. The Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act does not involve the FCC. Regulating ISPs as utilities does not empower the FCC to force ISPs to block services. Never mind regulate app stores and hosting…

I wasn't actually proposing that the FCC would have the power to remove apps from the app store, only that they could force ISPs to block specific servers.

I was thinking the FCC regulations would have that power to implement such a ban based on national security, though I could be wrong. I'd have to look back at the Patriot Act as well, I'd expect that to offer similar powers but I don't remember for sure.

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