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I'm giving up on open source

nutjs.dev

181–190 of 209 posts

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#181
post #178

I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people who post links as "examples" causing readers to witch hunt people on social media (GitHub in this case) regardless of their conduct. The user mentioned in the article has now been harassed so much they have deleted most of their GitHub and is threatening suicide. This letter reads hollow and I've seen a number of them before. If everyone operated this way OSS would be…

You have points here and I'm not discrediting them, but this still reads like you are blaming the maintainer. They don't have any obligation to put up with improper conduct and pointing out improper conduct is a totally fair thing for them to do. I don't think they mean for internet users to go hunt that person down, but I also don't see why it's their obligation to try to protect them. If the user didn't want to be…

There's a difference between "light and fair criticism" and a total witch hunt. If he truly wanted to make an example, there's lots of ways to include only the text from the issue in the blog post, while excluding personally identifying information. He purposefully and unecessarily linked the issue in the post because he felt spiteful towards this person and wanted his audience to give him hell.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#182
I used to be a maintainer of a few semi-popular open source projects, and boy do I feel this. I know this probably sounds like I'm whining, but it can really grind on you in a few different ways:

1) The unpleasant interactions, while rare, tend to be VERY unpleasant.

2) Unless you are solely devoted to working on that thing as your only hobby, people start wondering about the delay between code/releases.

3) A certain amount of the work is just keeping the lights on: making sure your dependencies are secure, making sure that new change in Github actions doesn't break your build, etc. If you only have a limited time to work on a project, a lot of it gets spent here sometimes.

4) The more popular something is, the more eyes on it, and the more bugs are found (and the bigger chance your bug fix introduces new bugs, especially if you have limited time to spend fixing it). This then takes up a larger percentage of your time.

For a certain level of open source popularity I feel like I only get a few options. I can turn it into my job somehow, I can make it my only hobby, or I can walk away. In a few instances I've chosen to walk away. Sometimes there is someone to take over, sometimes there isn't. No matter what it feels like an impossible choice.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#183
post #178

I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people who post links as "examples" causing readers to witch hunt people on social media (GitHub in this case) regardless of their conduct. The user mentioned in the article has now been harassed so much they have deleted most of their GitHub and is threatening suicide. This letter reads hollow and I've seen a number of them before. If everyone operated this way OSS would be…

I disagree with everything the author has to say. That being said the user here did something rude in a public place and deserves any backlash they get for doing so. If a little bit of internet condemnation causes someone to have a suicidal meltdown they shouldn't be online at all. We shouldn't all conform our behavior to be accommodating

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#184
I'm not a maintainer of any significant open source projects, but I'm very sympathetic to the author here. My personal philosophy has always been that I want to try to support, either with my time or my money, the creation of any projects that I find useful or use in my day-to-day life, and that anything I get from open source contributors or maintainers is supererogatory, a surprise, a free gift to be excited and happy about, instead of to take as something I am owed and demand more. I think the entitlement that much of the open source community directs towards our maintainers, where we expect them to fix all of the bugs problems we have, add all of the features we need, and somehow conform to everyone's vision and use case for the product, or else they are evil and selfish and "don't listen to the community," is just fundamentally unfair and unjustified: these people are doing work for free, and as such don't have any sort of obligation to us. No one deserves an ounce of free labor from anyone else, but the opposite of that seems to be the mentality that the FLOSS community has fallen into, and that sense of draining, entitled, almost childish obligation is naturally going to burn out maintainers and contributors at a pace faster than we can probably afford to replace them, because who wants the Sisyphean task of tirelessly and thanklessly appeasing hordes of childish demands? This is not to say that the demands themselves, they're specific technical content, are necessarily childish — of course they probably aren't. This is just to say that the expectant, demanding tone most requests are made in, which betrays the entitlement that motivates them, is itself childish. Neither is this to say that all requests made towards an open source project must be childish, as there is a way to make a request that doesn't seem like a demand, or contacts where demands are fair, like asking them to fix a CVE.

I do also think though that some of the author's problems also probably stem from the fact that they used an open source license instead of a proper free software license like the lgpl or mpl, which means that they weren't able to force individuals and companies to contribute back to the software commons they were all benefiting from, and therefore ended up with a free rider problem. A copy left license would have at least made people contribute some of their time to the library, if nothing else. But it isn't a perfect solution either.

In any case, I think this author's solution to the conundrum here is actually pretty reasonable. I've been pretty sympathetic to the idea of providing all of your source code — enough to compile and build a complete and functioning version of your project — as free and open source software, but asking for money if someone wants the convenience of pre-built binaries or packages, or access to a package repository or continuous integration system or something. It seems extremely fair to me to say to the user, essentially, "yes, you can get all of the source code you need to build a version of my project, so I'm not taking a way any of your basic software freedoms, but I'm not going to do anything more than the absolute bare minimum for you if you don't want to do anything more than the absolute minimum for me". Because while I believe in the idea that information should be free, and that open source is the best development model, and that libre software is important for user rights, I don't think that people are entitled to project authors going out of their way to provide conveniences like pre-built binaries or packages or package repositories.

On the same subject, I think this sort of entitled mentality in FOSS actually compromises the quality and diversity of the open source ecosystem as well: instead of each open source project being free to pursue, on its own terms, its own unique vision for what it wants to do and how it wants to achieve that, and everybody getting to choose which projects to use based on whether their vision happens to align with the vision of the project, instead users seem to just pick a project at random, based on whatever was provided to them by default or whatever they came across first, and then petulantly demand repeatedly that the project conform to whatever they want, making every project an exercise in regression to the mean through the eternal process of satisfying some giant collection of random people, until any unique coherent vision or direction for the project is lost under the weight of democratic cacophony. See GNOME vs KDE, essentially.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#185

I used to be a maintainer of a few semi-popular open source projects, and boy do I feel this. I know this probably sounds like I'm whining, but it can really grind on you in a few different ways: 1) The unpleasant interactions, while rare, tend to be VERY unpleasant. 2) Unless you are solely devoted to working on that thing as your only hobby, people start wondering about the delay between code/releases. 3) A certain…

Same here. To me it's not even some egregiously unpleasant interactions (there have been some of those, but they've been exceedingly rare). It's the constant barrage of low-level entitlement of expecting work that individually isn't much but sums up to basically "make this project your main priority in life because my problem should be just as important to you as it is to me".

I've started to think that there shouldn't be such a thing as a "main" codebase, but rather a network of clones that each introduce whatever fixes or features are important to them, and if they want changes from others they're free to integrate those themselves. Yes it's convenient for users to have a curated blessed distribution of a project, but at what cost?

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#186
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely don't tolerate abuse and set out your stall early on but I don't think the response is to fire the first volley, but to shutdown an abuser quickly. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" is an old saying but very true and often forgotten. As a maintainer or moderator, swift action which shuts down antisocial behaviour is more important than engaging. Perhaps you didn't really mean to say "abuse th…

> Absolutely don't tolerate abuse and set out your stall early on but I don't think the response is to fire the first volley, but to shutdown an abuser quickly. Well, by "abuse the crap out of abusers" I certainly didn't mean you should "fire the first volley". You can't know that someone is an abuser before they have fired the first volley. Then you fire the second one, to shut them down.

No, I think bobdvb has a point, and mostly where I think I'm going with this is that abusers should just be shut down. In the context of FOSS, I think that means some combination of a) don't tolerate their attacks and b) shut them out. Whatever that might look like, basically it just deprives them of using your project as a platform to satisfy their perverse interests in making someone feel miserable.

So, I'd rather not frame it as "abuse the abusers," because I think that risks escalating the situation.

Five years ago I may have agreed with you, but a lot has changed in my life to recognize that it's just not worth the time trying to engage someone who enjoys being mean.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#187
I feel it-- I gave up on open source about ~6 years ago when MS bought Github. I grew frustrated for a variety of reasons.

- I didn't like MS getting their hands on Github, knowing my code would be used to feed whatever MS had cooking.

- I began self hosting my code, only to become bitter with self-hosting solutions and peoples' general attitude towards it (why are you not on Github)?

- I refused to create a "Github" mirror to stay relevant.

- I also gave up writing (blogging) in general after realizing no one gave a damn what I thought.

- I then gave up sharing code in general as it felt like a burden. Why put my blood and sweat into something people won't use if it's not on Github, and then people feel entitled to whatever I make?

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#188
post #185

I used to be a maintainer of a few semi-popular open source projects, and boy do I feel this. I know this probably sounds like I'm whining, but it can really grind on you in a few different ways: 1) The unpleasant interactions, while rare, tend to be VERY unpleasant. 2) Unless you are solely devoted to working on that thing as your only hobby, people start wondering about the delay between code/releases. 3) A certain…

Same here. To me it's not even some egregiously unpleasant interactions (there have been some of those, but they've been exceedingly rare). It's the constant barrage of low-level entitlement of expecting work that individually isn't much but sums up to basically "make this project your main priority in life because my problem should be just as important to you as it is to me". I've started to think that there shouldn…

Yeah that's spot on. I can shake off the unpleasant interactions. The death by a thousand low level demands wears on me more.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#189
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do need to develop a very thick skin in OSS to be able to thrive. Yet, users or submitters of open-source must be coddled? One of the chief complaints about Linus Torvolds is his blunt communication style in response to poor quality code. So OSS developers must be able to accept very harsh critism or even insults but always be kind to users who offer nothing in return?

Torvalds was unnecessarily unrespectful. He fixed this. Now, he is still to the point and harsh when needed, but in a respectful way. That works and it's still as effective, if not better (because, it turns out, you are more eager to take something in account if it's not insulting you). > So OSS developers must be able to accept very harsh critism or even insults but always be kind to users who offer nothing in retur…

I remember Alan Cox quitting Linux development for the same reasons. Today he works on miniature railways and 8 bit microprocessors with Fuzix.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#190

I grew up in a community with things like a volunteer fire department. All the adults around me spent 10-20 hours/week in non-paid positions from coaching soccer to hospice care. A core of some dozens of people carried the community on their backs. I still see that today. From the volunteers who coordinate 4th of July celebrations to the 4-H mentors to that guy who hauls his own equipment over every month to mow the…

Yeah, I think a major factor is our current economic situation. It's no longer possible to support a family of four on a single income with a high school degree. Just look at "grind mindset" and gig work, open source is in crisis because it's harder to put food on the table.
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