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I'm giving up on open source

nutjs.dev

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Re: I'm giving up on open source

#171

Post by [deleted] »

bruce511 wrote: post #67
haswell wrote: post #25

I'm struggling with the framing of all of this. I think it's clear that the author doesn't want to be involved with the realities (as unfortunate as they are) of maintaining an OSS project. There are very real issues with entitled or abusive users that have been well documented. What I don't understand is the expectation that the money would just flow upon publishing the software with a permissive license. It sounds…

I don't think he's suggesting everyone should abandon OSS. he's still using it, and contributing. I think he's saying that his "professional journey building OSS" is over. ie his day job needs to generate income. The abuse part exists in all software, free and commercial. But it's especially galling when you did the work for free. OSS also tends to attract, um, shall we say, those who are likely to be uncomplimentary…

[deleted]

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#172

Post by refulgentis »

CRConrad wrote: post #151
refulgentis wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be tone deaf fluffy theory in the face of "well, I can't afford to eat but at least some guy online says it's fine wine" Printer driver is a nice motivating story but in practice its a lotta work for no benefit

> Printer driver is a nice motivating story but in practice its a lotta work for no benefit Printer driver is what the Free Software movement, and therefore its bastard son the Open Source movement, comes from. But, sure, you want to call that "no benefit", you do you, man...

Strawman. We're discussing an article about someone whose job (was) open source. I never said open source has "no benefit". I specifically linked it to the specific article we are specifically discussing and how the specifics ruled out similarities to altering your printer driver.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#173

Post by remram »

haswell wrote: post #25

I'm struggling with the framing of all of this. I think it's clear that the author doesn't want to be involved with the realities (as unfortunate as they are) of maintaining an OSS project. There are very real issues with entitled or abusive users that have been well documented. What I don't understand is the expectation that the money would just flow upon publishing the software with a permissive license. It sounds…

Reminds me of "open source is not a business model": https://anonymoushash.vmbrasseur.com/2018/08/24/open-source-...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602316

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#175

Post by friend_and_foe »

I've got s pretty great solution to this kind of stuff, one that works for me anyway.

If I want something that doesn't exist bad enough, I make it. I release it to the world for free. When I need an improvement, I make the improvement. If you need an improvement, make a PR. If it's a feature request, unless I think it would be interesting to implement, make the tool more well rounded or I will find utility in the proposal, I don't do it.

I don't maintain beyond that. Sorry not sorry. If it's popular enough that a community forms around it the community can maintain it. If someone or some company comes to rely on it, they can maintain it. I made a thing, I gave it to the world for free just because, that's it. I don't owe the world anything and I'm not a charity.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#176

Post by roncesvalles »

bruce511 wrote: post #83
anaxamander wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most people won't pay for software if ... they don't have a vested interest in the project succeeding. Wouldn't you expect companies that rely on a given project to have a vested interest in the project succeeding? I wouldn't choose to spend who-knows-how-many man hours on migrating to a new technology instead of paying a modest (for a business) fee for licensing something I rely on.

I think the root of your mis-expectation is in thinking that companies behave like people. Your viewpoint is personal "I would do this" and for you it's easy, it's your money so you just write a check. Companies don't work like that. Firstly because individuals get budgets, and there's no point wasting limited resources on free stuff. Secondly because individuals are accountable. There are procurement processes, mult…

Exactly. It's much easier for a company to pay your price tag than to justify giving you a donation.

And it's pretty obvious why -- a purchase is a transaction with a clear expectation of what you're getting in return. If you donate, it's unclear what you're paying for and what the maintainer's obligations are.

The notion that you'd make some useful open-source project used by multi-billion-dollar companies and they'll throw a few pennies your way to make sure you keep the project alive is hippie bullshit.

Unless it's truly a well-established and well-governed project with a diligent maintainer at the helm (e.g. Vue.js), the only way companies financially support open-source is by contributing work or hiring the maintainer.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#177

Post by THENATHE »

haswell wrote: post #25

I'm struggling with the framing of all of this. I think it's clear that the author doesn't want to be involved with the realities (as unfortunate as they are) of maintaining an OSS project. There are very real issues with entitled or abusive users that have been well documented. What I don't understand is the expectation that the money would just flow upon publishing the software with a permissive license. It sounds…

I think the problem with open source in today's day and age is that old school programmers were all about making the landscape better, because they enjoyed computers where they had a passion for it. Modern-Day programmers, as a general statement, want money. Open source software is generally a terrible way to make money, but modern-day programmers believe that they can just create a really nice program and then make money from it. From a financial perspective, open source software is basically terrible for the people that make it, but really really great for the people that use it. That kind of goes against capitalism, almost, because basically every other capitalist-based business rapes all of the benefits for the person that develops the thing, so coming from a very american-centric perspective, it seems kind of wild to think that I can develop something that is really the backbone of a bunch of different stuff and very good, and make absolutely no money from it.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#178

Post by junon »

I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people who post links as "examples" causing readers to witch hunt people on social media (GitHub in this case) regardless of their conduct. The user mentioned in the article has now been harassed so much they have deleted most of their GitHub and is threatening suicide.

This letter reads hollow and I've seen a number of them before. If everyone operated this way OSS would be an apocalyptic nightmare.

I'm also not really sure what the author expected here. Having popular stuff garners unfair criticism. It's part of the gig. You can't control it. It feels like a rant - I understand, completely - but when you send people to a specific comment and tell them "see what this asshole said about me!" you're sending emotionally charged people behind the defense of their computer screen to gang up on that person. It's no longer an example, it's an abuse of power. And it feels like the author knows this, given they felt the need to write an announcement article.

This feels incredibly poor taste.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#179

Post by junon »

codezero wrote: post #56
franciscop wrote: post #31

You do need to develop a very thick skin in OSS to be able to thrive. You need to learn to just block those issues+people, both in the repo and mentally. I'm a nobody, but still some of my projects got a bit popular and I felt the heat, e.g. one of them was a CSS library which was very "beginner friendly", so people came constantly to the Issues to ask help with their CSS and how to do their job (not about the librar…

or we could demand that users of free software shouldn't dictate the culture of the community and that maintainers don't need thick skin. Instead maybe we should ask that users should be respectful and courteous.

Wishful thinking. Humans suck. That won't change, and it's only gotten worse. It's not a fun reality, but it's reality. The sooner you can come to terms with that fact, the sooner you can begin to navigate around it.

Re: I'm giving up on open source

#180

Post by sigseg1v »

junon wrote: post #178

I don't really have a lot of sympathy for people who post links as "examples" causing readers to witch hunt people on social media (GitHub in this case) regardless of their conduct. The user mentioned in the article has now been harassed so much they have deleted most of their GitHub and is threatening suicide. This letter reads hollow and I've seen a number of them before. If everyone operated this way OSS would be…

You have points here and I'm not discrediting them, but this still reads like you are blaming the maintainer.

They don't have any obligation to put up with improper conduct and pointing out improper conduct is a totally fair thing for them to do. I don't think they mean for internet users to go hunt that person down, but I also don't see why it's their obligation to try to protect them. If the user didn't want to be criticized back, or cannot handle the light and fair criticism that people posted in that issue, then they maybe should have not thrown the stone in the first place?

My the point is it feels out of place to blame the maintainer for this, in my opinion. If they want to say "hey this is unacceptable, and here is specifically what is unacceptable" that is totally fair game.

I feel like this type of calling out unacceptable actions is not done enough and we really should start to do it more to signal that it's not ok to be so rude to someone providing you free stuff.

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