Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hi, sometime middle-manager here. The goal isn't to have me make decisions, its to let people around me make decisions quickly and well enough that most of the time it works out, and when it doesn't, we can roll back easily. If this isn't working out, I hire experts to improve the quality of decision-making, with me making decisions as a last resort.
I mean you can say that, but that has never been my experience. Neither, I'm sure, has it been many other peoples' experiences either.
Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
141–150 of 497 posts
Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#142Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
Valve is also fairly bad at maintaining focus on smaller projects. High-profile green-field projects like Steam Deck are fine, but lower priority tasks, particularly maintenance work, suffer. (For example, most of Valve's first-party games - including major titles like Half-Life and Portal - have been unplayable on macOS for nearly five years because there's no 64-bit build.)
I’m on not saying you’re wrong, but old games don’t really count as evidence of lack of maintenance. Games generally don’t receive maintenance unless there’s an ongoing revenue model, which there isn’t for Half-Life and Portal.
Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#144Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's called "empire building" and is also part of the principal-agent problem where the manager is the agent and is assumed to have the firm's best interests in mind, but in reality doesn't. As a result, the principal (for example an owner) has to come up with methods to keep their management honest (example... tying most compensation to stock price - although I think this just makes management short sighted). I was…
> the manager is the agent and is assumed to have the firm's best interests in mind, but in reality doesn't. Every manager I had at every major multinational company only had the interest of their own career progression in mind, not the company's, not their team's. You as an employee under them were just a means to their goal, nothing more. I naively assumed that making them look good and doing the overtime when need…
That’s why I find this idea so horrible. I wouldn’t be where I am now if I had to “self-organize.”
Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hi, sometime middle-manager here. The goal isn't to have me make decisions, its to let people around me make decisions quickly and well enough that most of the time it works out, and when it doesn't, we can roll back easily. If this isn't working out, I hire experts to improve the quality of decision-making, with me making decisions as a last resort.
So… the goal is for you to do nothing? Except not impede people making decisions and hiring consultants when you, not the person closer to the issue, thinks it’s not working?
This is fairly obvious because for a while he was doing that for too many people because we couldn't find a person for the position. If I can speed up answers and feedback and provide direction quickly in a way that's similar to what he would have do for people that often ended up waiting for him because his schedule was too busy, then I'm doing at least one part of my job well.
The more layers of this there are the more likely the message might be garbled by that game of telephone, but ultimately people can only handle so many relationships successfully, especially when they require specific regular action, and delegation (which is all middle management is essentially) is one approach that's been found to work around this.
When I'm doing my job well, the people I manage have clear directions and expectations, and if the company is managed well those expectations are seen as achievable by all involved, and if they aren't it's my job to communicate that either up or down the structure. I don't think it's sane to assume that will just naturally occur once a workforce gets big enough, so something is needed to help that along, and managers are one way to do so.
Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the manager is the agent and is assumed to have the firm's best interests in mind, but in reality doesn't. Every manager I had at every major multinational company only had the interest of their own career progression in mind, not the company's, not their team's. You as an employee under them were just a means to their goal, nothing more. I naively assumed that making them look good and doing the overtime when need…
I’ve been fortunate to have some very good managers. That’s why I find this idea so horrible. I wouldn’t be where I am now if I had to “self-organize.”
Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When you apply for your next job as a manager they will ask you “How big was your team?”, and they won’t be impressed when you say “I managed to keep it down to four people” I had this same interaction when applying for Staff+ software engineer (not manager) at two FAANGs. One of the recruiters sniffed, or maybe negged, and said they expected X number people under you for that role. Highly effective small teams was…
Same for technology used. You won’t get much credit for keeping costs down and keeping things simple. The real money is in developing super complex systems. That will give you respect.
That's why I like all-round developers better, they have a bit less to prove by making "smart and complicated" code.
Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#149I've seen a similar idea implemented with a lot of tech teams. In particular, I've seen companies try to be "flat," meaning that the software developers don't have managers, but instead, the software developers are expected to self-organize. But all of the normal tasks of a manager still exist: someone has to coordinate the work of multiple teams when those teams have zones of concern that overlap, and someone needs…
> When I was at ShermansTravel.com we had a very competent project manager who oversaw the tech team. She did a fantastic job of estimating tickets, prioritizing tickets, and keeping engineers focused on the right tickets. But she was paid less than any of the software engineers. And I think that is the right model for most companies, including Bayer. The default assumption, everywhere, is that managers need to be pa…
Supply and demand dictating salaries or whatever. This concept of your manager has to make more money than you because they have the ability to fire you doesn't really make much sense.
Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’
#150I’ve worked in an environment where there are no managers for 4 1/2 years and it’s been fantastic. Here’s to getting rid of them in most (but certainly not all!) places.
It's no secret that small teams of experts do not need managers. But if the team grows, you will either have to sacrifice producer productivity to coordination and management tasks or hire someone to offload those responsibilities. Many orgs struggle as they undergo a "phase change" from one type of team to another, as it requires a different set of skills, strategies and expectations along with dramatically higher s…