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Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

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Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#121
post #12

I’ve worked in an environment where there are no managers for 4 1/2 years and it’s been fantastic. Here’s to getting rid of them in most (but certainly not all!) places.

I've gone the other way! I used to be strongly against managers. I drooled over that Valve manual describing the flat hierarchy, etc., and I would have honestly said that managers in general were a parasite that had latched on to the software industry. That's honestly what I felt.

Now I work at a place with not enough managers to go around, and my team basically has 25% of a PM's time, and no dedicated department head (last guy quit, leadership has not decided whether to rehire). It's absolute chaos. No shit shield between us and leadership, nobody to soak up all the excess meetings required to understand what's going on throughout the company, nobody with political weight to throw around on our behalf, nobody to persist a long term vision for our department. We're working twice as hard to tread water, and creating a lot of technical debt while we only barely stay on top of our basic responsibilities.

It may be that, at an organization that is set up not to have managers, it's better than just being the one group in an organization that doesn't have one. I admit that's a possibility.

But, at another organization, I've actually had great experiences with managers, who cleared the road for me and made me feel like I was doing better work more easily than I was without them. So, on the whole I am pro manager, so long as they are very very very good at it.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#122
post #115

The problem with too many layers of management is mainly that they stop doing what they should do. Making decisions. The lowest management layer cannot make any decisions alone, otherwise the next layer would have no reason to exist. The next layer might even have to hand over the decision to one layer above. Up there no one really understands the decision that needs to be made because they are too far away from the…

Hi, sometime middle-manager here. The goal isn't to have me make decisions, its to let people around me make decisions quickly and well enough that most of the time it works out, and when it doesn't, we can roll back easily. If this isn't working out, I hire experts to improve the quality of decision-making, with me making decisions as a last resort.

[deleted]

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#123
post #120

> Stewart Butterfield, former CEO of Slack, recently described a dynamic within tech companies behind much of the over-hiring. He noted on Bloomberg’s Odd Lots podcast in late May that when there’s no real constraint on hiring, “you hire someone, and the first thing that person wants to do is hire other people.” The reason is that “the more people who report to you, the higher your prestige, the more your power in th…

> When you apply for your next job as a manager they will ask you “How big was your team?”, and they won’t be impressed when you say “I managed to keep it down to four people” I had this same interaction when applying for Staff+ software engineer (not manager) at two FAANGs. One of the recruiters sniffed, or maybe negged, and said they expected X number people under you for that role. Highly effective small teams was…

Same for technology used. You won’t get much credit for keeping costs down and keeping things simple. The real money is in developing super complex systems. That will give you respect.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#124

The problem with too many layers of management is mainly that they stop doing what they should do. Making decisions. The lowest management layer cannot make any decisions alone, otherwise the next layer would have no reason to exist. The next layer might even have to hand over the decision to one layer above. Up there no one really understands the decision that needs to be made because they are too far away from the…

The layers above do likely understand the actual business goals better, and want to be sure that this thing you are asking for is actually going to support achieving those goals. Ideally that is the case, anyway.

To an extent, sure.

If you've got the CEO, and you've got front-line workers doing the actual value-producing business, you can have two layers in between, sure. Maybe three layers.

But once you get to four or five layers? I hope your culture and productivity and ways of working were exactly where they need to be, because they're now impossible for anyone to consciously change.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#125
post #43

Valve - the PC gaming giant and owner of Steam - is very famously a flat organization. Their Handbook for New Employees[1] that goes into detail about how they operate has made its way out into the world a few times as well. [1] - https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewE...

Valve is also fairly bad at maintaining focus on smaller projects. High-profile green-field projects like Steam Deck are fine, but lower priority tasks, particularly maintenance work, suffer. (For example, most of Valve's first-party games - including major titles like Half-Life and Portal - have been unplayable on macOS for nearly five years because there's no 64-bit build.)

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#126
"Well hello there. It is I Bill Anderson" "How good to see you all". "A year ago we got rid of middle management, and it is a huge success" "Sadly, we need to cut another 1000 jobs, but we all understand that." "my private jet needs to be replaced and I need a bigger bonus" "Now you need to self-organize and pick the 1000 coworkers who wont be co-workers anymore. "You will have 30 minutes or organize and remember this is a flat structure". "Also what do you think the severance package should be?" "It will be financed directly from the remaning workers' wages." "We wont have anyone like evil HR make these decisions anymore now you can do it yourself". "BTW this (carnage) will all be streamed live on Hulu where watchers are already placing bets"

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#127
I am not convinced. Reading the whole article it seems that Bayer is moving to a system better known as QBR, mixed with OKRs and most likely some sort of agile model.

There is no no-hierarchies. Working in a 3 month cadence on an organizational level puts a lot of pressure on all people. Usually QBRs work top down and there is more monitoring along the process.

What sounds great is more or less success theatre as well as inflexibility. No one wants to lack behind in a QBR report. Risking 4 times a year being red flagged in a report sparks fear.

Also approval processes and idea sharing are the first victims of such reorganizations. No one risks a 2 week sprint for some improvement sprint or working on technical debt in tech for example.

I’ve seen this within a company with 100k employees worldwide.

People will regret QBRs.

Usually companies want to get rid of the costs of middle managers, which are usually elder than normal staffers. Also companies want to include younger folks, because they are on average cheaper per resource from a controlling perspective.

Young guns without leadership with delivery pressure by an even older senior management layer means having a large gap and divide between them.

Senior management adds so called assistants to their staff, the hidden layer.

I watched a lot of mobbing at the lower level as a result. Fear of tumbling over mistakes aka receiving a bad performance review is rampant when you need to report all the time results.

Mixing teams every QBR sounds fun, but isn’t. It means even more being in constant competition. Who is the most flexible employee and most successful under different circumstances?

Large organizations are hard to manage. People will very soon miss their middle managers to cover things up in a human way.

QBRs don’t help if there is a clear product strategy missing.

There is no perfect system, but QBRs are some of the most toxic form of working and collaboration that I have witnessed so far.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#128
Self-organizing still leads to bosses, but they just get paid like regular workers.

My company does this sort of thing but with dev chapter leads. The chapter leads have no management training and no authority. They don't even really know what you're doing since they're on a separate team and have their own coding work. They're senior devs that have added management responsibilities and are just paid as senior devs. Fuck that.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#129
post #43

Valve - the PC gaming giant and owner of Steam - is very famously a flat organization. Their Handbook for New Employees[1] that goes into detail about how they operate has made its way out into the world a few times as well. [1] - https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewE...

Valve is also fairly bad at maintaining focus on smaller projects. High-profile green-field projects like Steam Deck are fine, but lower priority tasks, particularly maintenance work, suffer. (For example, most of Valve's first-party games - including major titles like Half-Life and Portal - have been unplayable on macOS for nearly five years because there's no 64-bit build.)

I’m on not saying you’re wrong, but old games don’t really count as evidence of lack of maintenance. Games generally don’t receive maintenance unless there’s an ongoing revenue model, which there isn’t for Half-Life and Portal.

Re: Bayer is getting rid of bosses and asking staff to ‘self-organize’

#130
post #43

Valve - the PC gaming giant and owner of Steam - is very famously a flat organization. Their Handbook for New Employees[1] that goes into detail about how they operate has made its way out into the world a few times as well. [1] - https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewE...

Valve is very famously terrible at actually shipping games. Mostly they’re good at taking 30% off of most of the PC gaming industry and occasionally hiring teams that made popular mods to polish the mods. https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-unusual-corporate-structure-c...
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