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CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

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Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#361
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure all the ISA issues are clearly stated in the contract, or whether they were clearly stated in all the contacts, before they started to get into trouble. But they clearly lied about much of this stuff in the headline publicity. Lying prominently and 'clarifying' the lies in the small print is obviously still fraud. Doing fraud and saying 'but the majority of the people we defrauded still had an overall po…

Can you point out the lies? I'm genuinely trying to find them, and the CFPB article does not provide any evidence other than a few marketing quotes. I'm very sure all the ISA issues are clearly stated in the contract. Everything is very clear about the fact that you will pay a minimum of $17-18k, and a max of $30k as a percentage of your monthly income. It was very clear that missing a payment would incur the entire…

Everything I had seen said you’d only pay if they helped you land a programming job. It looks like more than a few people were surprised when the actual terms allowed them to collect a percentage of income from unrelated employment. I never went through the program, but I’ve seen more than enough marketing and promotion from it; these revelations are quite surprising to me.

The CFPB statements outline where BloomTech was misleading at best. You can’t dress up a loan as some other name and skirt regulations, no matter how much small print you use.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Candidly, that was pretty clear even decades ago when this was an obscure little place. PG, for example, didn’t realize that discriminating against people who have children might not be great until he himself had kids. He’s a mid dude with gross feet who came up with a wildly profitable business model (6% equity in as many promising founders as possible).

> He’s a mid dude with gross feet Does he sell feet pics :) ?

[dead]

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#363
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone here commenting on this story said that Lambda counted their student TAs in their employment stats, for example, but to the best of my knowledge this never happened. There were a handful (like three or four that I know of) that we did hire as full-time staff doing real jobs, and I'm pretty sure we counted them as employed, but not the student TAs. That's true. A source of confusion is that the school did hi…

> I imagine that they got that $4,000 number from all the people who attended the program, received zero practical skills to get jobs, went on to further training But to be clear, that's not where they said they got the $4000 number. It would be one of those things that'd be nice to correctly know. Do ISAs come with a hidden $4000 fee? The answer: no. Did they have to pay $4000 more because of additional training? No…

I'm the founder of Launch School and I have been thinking about ISAs, coding bootcamps, and software ed for over a decade. I've tried to insert my thoughts here and there, for example:

     - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30782967
     - https://x.com/cglee/status/1232512904953335808
Always happy to chat about ISAs and how to best deploy them. Or, find better alternatives.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#364
post #210
post #146

Vincent Woo in 2020: "Lambda has claimed a 86% student placement rate for years. The real number is probably about 50%." [1] From the announcement: "BloomTech and Allred lured prospective enrollees with inflated promises of job-placement rates as high as 86 percent, when the company’s internal metrics showed placement rates closer to 50 percent and in some cases as low as 30 percent." Bravo Vincent! [1] https://twitt…

Thanks

I remember seeing you debate Jason Calacanis from the all in podcast on this week in startups on this exact topic. You are probably one of the most confident, well spoken people I have ever heard on a podcast. You also don't derive your comfort from the people around you, so you didn't feel the need to laugh away awkward moments. It's a great watch. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5hUT8VZNvm8&t=3488s&pp=ygUhVGh...

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#366
post #363
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I imagine that they got that $4,000 number from all the people who attended the program, received zero practical skills to get jobs, went on to further training But to be clear, that's not where they said they got the $4000 number. It would be one of those things that'd be nice to correctly know. Do ISAs come with a hidden $4000 fee? The answer: no. Did they have to pay $4000 more because of additional training? No…

I'm the founder of Launch School and I have been thinking about ISAs, coding bootcamps, and software ed for over a decade. I've tried to insert my thoughts here and there, for example: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30782967 - https://x.com/cglee/status/1232512904953335808 Always happy to chat about ISAs and how to best deploy them. Or, find better alternatives.

Thanks for replying! The reviews of Launch School are impressive.

I think you're dead on with that first link. I've heard of some schools that did not apply an effective filter up front, despite instructor pleas, and suffered for it greatly with lowered job placement, ultimately failing with the ISA model.

I feel there's a class of students for whom ISAs are perfect, and, just like you said, a class of students for whom they are ineffective. The ones where the ISA works and standard school is out of reach have incredible success stories.

I found something similar when I taught a nearly free C++ class. I put a really simple test on the front with a refundable $20 fee (if you took the course). Everyone who ultimately took the class was really motivated. $20 was all it took to filter. $5 might have even worked since I speculate the effect is psychological, not economical.

The second link is good food for thought, some stuff I hadn't considered. If the ISAs are sold cheaply enough, you really don't need much student success to get a return.

IIRC, in Lambda's case, the ISA sales were stopped while the company was still young (having gotten another round) [caveat: I didn't have much visibility into this side of things], and anecdotally I think they had some of their biggest successes early on, but I agree with your points on this.

One thing that really impressed me about Lambda was how diverse in every respect the student body was, people from just every walk of life. Waaay more so than I'd seen at any university. I credit the ISA for making this possible.

One of my missions in life is to enable people to get the training they want to get. ISAs were wonderful in that regard.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#367
post #363
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I imagine that they got that $4,000 number from all the people who attended the program, received zero practical skills to get jobs, went on to further training But to be clear, that's not where they said they got the $4000 number. It would be one of those things that'd be nice to correctly know. Do ISAs come with a hidden $4000 fee? The answer: no. Did they have to pay $4000 more because of additional training? No…

I'm the founder of Launch School and I have been thinking about ISAs, coding bootcamps, and software ed for over a decade. I've tried to insert my thoughts here and there, for example: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30782967 - https://x.com/cglee/status/1232512904953335808 Always happy to chat about ISAs and how to best deploy them. Or, find better alternatives.

I am the founder of BlueWave Labs - we accept junior developers and UI/UX designers to give them Canadian experience by building open source products, to help them land their full time IT jobs and would love to talk to anyone who has put some thought on bootcamps. BWL is a bit different from bootcamps but the main idea is the same: to help people land full time jobs.

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#369
post #366
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the founder of Launch School and I have been thinking about ISAs, coding bootcamps, and software ed for over a decade. I've tried to insert my thoughts here and there, for example: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30782967 - https://x.com/cglee/status/1232512904953335808 Always happy to chat about ISAs and how to best deploy them. Or, find better alternatives.

Thanks for replying! The reviews of Launch School are impressive. I think you're dead on with that first link. I've heard of some schools that did not apply an effective filter up front, despite instructor pleas, and suffered for it greatly with lowered job placement, ultimately failing with the ISA model. I feel there's a class of students for whom ISAs are perfect, and, just like you said, a class of students for w…

I think you have to be careful about looking at the diverse student body as "giving them an opportunity". For example, predatory for-profit universities specifically target low-income minority populations not to serve them but because they make for easy prey[1]. I'm not saying Lambda or any particular bootcamp is in this category, just that having a diverse student body isn't a feature unless you know for a fact that you're helping 100% of the students.[2]

Education has a couple of unique attributes that makes it difficult to assess:

     1. the value cannot be perceived until much later after the service is rendered
     2. alternatives are mutually exclusive; eg, people usually just attend one university or coding bootcamp, not all of them (or even two of them)
This is in contrast to, say, a restaurant where diners can immediately determine if they like the food and can compare it with competitors (because they dine at all the restaurants).

Those two attributes make it very easy to lead with hype and marketing and vulnerable people are particularly susceptible to it. imo it's not appropriate to deploy the standard startup playbook in edu, especially if you find yourself attracting vulnerable students.

Ok, now combine that with ISAs, which has some positive qualities but are not as incentive aligning as marketed. And then if you sell the ISA in bundles, then it becomes even less incentive aligning. Well, I guess it's now aligning with investors and loan brokers. But it's certainly not aligning more with student outcomes.

It all makes for a very delicate situation where you have vulnerable students biting on the ISA bait.

I know it seems like I'm just complaining but I've been thinking about these problems for a long time and I come with solutions. Or, particularly, a solution: imo the best thing an edu institution can do is allow students to leave easily.

Why do we never think of restaurants as predatory? The idea is ludicrous to even consider. There are of course terrible restaurants but we can just not dine there again and eat elsewhere. There are lots of restaurants around.

And here's the issue: there are also lots of edu institutions around but every single one of them deploy the marketing->entrapment playbook.[3]

How does marketing work when you have a bad school? Because of the time-lapse between value received and service rendered. The ISA is easily abused in this environment because it's both the marketing and the trap.

Anyway, I'm just riffing here... btw, huge fan of your books and work! Despite what I wrote above, I knew Lambda was making an honest attempt at their curriculum when they hired you.

  [1] https://failstatemovie.com/
  [2] imo, edu institutions need to be judged on how they treat their most vulnerable students, unlike startups who are judged on their best wins (https://twitter.com/cglee/status/1781129096250179640)
  [3] https://medium.com/launch-school/educational-entrapment-f5cc0472051e

Re: CFPB Takes Action Against Coding Boot Camp BloomTech and CEO Austen Allred

#370
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the founder of Launch School and I have been thinking about ISAs, coding bootcamps, and software ed for over a decade. I've tried to insert my thoughts here and there, for example: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30782967 - https://x.com/cglee/status/1232512904953335808 Always happy to chat about ISAs and how to best deploy them. Or, find better alternatives.

I am the founder of BlueWave Labs - we accept junior developers and UI/UX designers to give them Canadian experience by building open source products, to help them land their full time IT jobs and would love to talk to anyone who has put some thought on bootcamps. BWL is a bit different from bootcamps but the main idea is the same: to help people land full time jobs.

How far along are you? I like what Recurse Center is doing, for example.
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