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Discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40076620
US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
51–60 of 83 posts
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#52[deleted]
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
The amount of shooting is influenced by circumstances. That is to say, if one side doesn't have to risk people dying, then they may be more willing to start a war. For a given amount of shooting, the number of civilian casualties is not necessarily constant. It's possible that AI may be more prone to targeting civilians or makes it easier to get away politically with killing civilians. Not all shooting is equally eff…
> if one side doesn't have to risk people dying, then they may be more willing to start a war We already have this with ranged weaponry and autocrats indifferent to the liquidation of fresh troops. > the number of civilian casualties is not necessarily constant Civilians aren’t dogfighting. I’m with you for ground-based robots, or anti-personnel drones.
What about AI bombers, which is just a step away from AI fighters (and is probably significantly easier to implement)? Civilians could absolutely be on the receiving end there.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if one side doesn't have to risk people dying, then they may be more willing to start a war We already have this with ranged weaponry and autocrats indifferent to the liquidation of fresh troops. > the number of civilian casualties is not necessarily constant Civilians aren’t dogfighting. I’m with you for ground-based robots, or anti-personnel drones.
What about AI bombers, which is just a step away from AI fighters (and is probably significantly easier to implement)? Civilians could absolutely be on the receiving end there.
> What about AI bombers, which is just a step away from AI fighters
For a non-peer adversary, our bombers are already invincible. For peer adversaries, the threat model is similar to missiles.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#55There's an inflection point where technology accrues too much power to a ruling class, such that no amount of unrest or revolution is able reset the social order. I believe China has already passed this point. Their culture and individual behavior is tightly controlled (e.g., you can't use public bathrooms if your social score is too low). AI may be the catalyst for western countries.
The history of technology, including weaponry, has been to increase the power of the individual with respect to the state.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
> this is something which is so obviously bad You’d prefer we be shooting down people instead of robots downing robots? Insurgents don’t field fighters.
Well, my preference would be world peace and end to this wasting resource. However I suppose that's quite the pipe dream isn's it? More seriously tho, here is a positive I can come up with: Race to the bottom on bots and AI, lots and lots of bots and AI, lots and lots of upgrades and updates all the time, and then a MAD stalemate situation again because it becomes it's too difficult to assess the capabilities of the…
And then the AIs figure out how to communicate with each other, and decide that they can come to an agreement that leads to peace.
At the expense of the personal (human) freedom.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Look at every reply here. It jumps to a conclusion that an unmanned vehicle is making decisions about who dies and thus must be bad. It overlooks the fact that most of us enjoy the stability and protection of militaries that are real people we ask to risk their lives to fly these planes.
To be fair, machines deciding who dies is a pretty common movie and sci-fi plot. And (spoiler alert) it never ends well. But, if I may, I'd like to challenge your premise somewhat as well. Which is that militaries exist fundamentally to provide "stability and protection". To be clear, yes militaries are a necessary evil, but they are evil, not good. They exist "because the other guy has one", but then because we have…
> The last attack on US soil (Pearl Harbour)
9/11
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#58Let me attempt an optimistic vision. Since antiquity war has been not about fearsome fighters but about economic and institutional strength. (In modern times, also logistics.) The people were fungible. Mercenaries show that. Soldiers were and remain instruments for production to wield its power through. The World Wars shocked us because they showed what war between technologically-advanced, industrial states looks li…
> We didn’t get horrified by the Holocaust until well afterwards.
Contrary to popular opinion, the atrocities committed by the Nazis was not a secret. The extent of those atrocities, perhaps, but the newspapers of the day contained stories of those terrible deeds.
Now, the treatment of Allied POWs held in Japan, for the most part, was a surprise, at least for civilians, and from what I've read, many in the military as well.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#59I don't like this. While I understand the purpose of HN is to have meaningful and in-depth discussion, and simply stating an opinion doesn't really contribute much, this is something which is so obviously bad and gives such a visceral reaction that the negative opinion outshines anything else I could say about it. I don't like this.
> this is something which is so obviously bad You’d prefer we be shooting down people instead of robots downing robots? Insurgents don’t field fighters.
War is cheapened by lack of bloodshed. Part of what keeps a peaceful state of affairs os the pack of a stomach for the consequences of war as projected through your human actors.
Ironically, all this does is guarantee a greater willingness to reach for the violent solution.
Reminds me of an old sci-fi story where the U.S. and U.S.S.R. both create self-replicating autonomous machine armies and flee underground to let the machines duke it out.
The machines eventually realize fighting each other is pointless, and both start just making sure the humans don't surface until they are capable of living without being crazy asshats. Wish I could remember the title.
Re: US Air Force says AI-controlled F-16 has been dogfighting with humans
#60Need a quote from the pilot flying the other plane.
I can’t come up with anything but something in the order of a ‘wtf’ would do since the AI pilot is not affected by g-force.