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The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

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Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#331
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you restrict your comparison to wired connections only? Because wireless simply is not enough. There is a pretty fundamental limit to it, called the "sampling theorem". You simply don't have enough available bandwidth for the cell wireless to replace the wired connections, even in moderately dense environments. This is not a theory, btw. I had T-Mobile 5G "fixed wireless" connection and could immediately tel…

> There is a pretty fundamental limit to it, called the "sampling theorem". You simply don't have enough available bandwidth for the cell wireless to replace the wired connections, even in moderately dense environments. I live in Singapore which is denser than basically any place in the US, and people are obsessed with their phones. Mobile bandwidth works just fine. I suspect your underwhelming 5G experience could be…

> I live in Singapore which is denser than basically any place in the US, and people are obsessed with their phones. Mobile bandwidth works just fine.

For 4k video? No, it doesn't. Also, Singapore is probably spammed with microcells so your phone actually connects to a 5G cell that is only a bit more away than your WiFi router.

I was in Singapore last week, and I'm writing this from China. And no, mobile Internet in both countries can't compete with wired broadband.

> I suspect your underwhelming 5G experience could be related with cells in your area being rather big, so they had many people in them? If you have a higher density of people, you need a higher density of cells.

It's both. The US favors low-density housing, as it's much more people-friendly than any other alternative. The other option is high-density Downtown hellscapes with scyscrapers. Both areas are not great for wireless.

> In any case, that's why I was emphasising the different wires we already have (cable tv, plain old phone cables, power line, and in some places optical fibre, etc) and the wireless options (3G, 4G, 5G, wifi, satellite, and the more directed exotic microwave transmission, etc). I probably missed a few.

Only cable is capable of 1G speeds. Phone wires realistically max out at ~30/10 Mbps up/down with VDSL. There is no Internet over powerlines in the US, and there'll never be because of RF leaks.

So your realistic option is either the coaxial cable or newly laid fiber. And fiber is often owned by the same company that owns the cable.

> Try starting up a new tap water or sewage provider. I don't think the government will let you.

Nothing stops you. There are companies that provide alternative water service, they are often used to fill or drain swimming pools. It's just not economically feasible, unless there are special circumstances.

> If there's insufficient competition in the US, perhaps don't blame 'nature'.

There are no countries that are similar to the US that have competitive "last mile" Internet. None.

All the more successful countries (e.g. Sweden) decouple the last mile, making it a state-owned (or a heavily regulated) utility. And then ISPs can just buy access to it and compete based on services/price.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#332
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part is, imo, US taxpayers paid for all that infrastructure. These ISPs absolutely should be forced to open their infrastructure to other providers, like in Europe, and for the same reasons.

> The worst part is, imo, US taxpayers paid for all that infrastructure. Isn't that exactly how it always worked? Whatever public service works well is privatised (for some reason I don't get), and whatever is a source of cost stays public. Such that the taxpayer keeps paying, and some people get rich by screwing them.

Not sure why I got downvoted for that. It seems only rational that private actors may want to privatise and buy any public service that is profitable. Because private actors seek profit.

Now many times I don't think it is a good idea (why in the world would one privatise public transports? "Public" is in the title...), but that is another question.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#333
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a pretty fundamental limit to it, called the "sampling theorem". You simply don't have enough available bandwidth for the cell wireless to replace the wired connections, even in moderately dense environments. I live in Singapore which is denser than basically any place in the US, and people are obsessed with their phones. Mobile bandwidth works just fine. I suspect your underwhelming 5G experience could be…

> I live in Singapore which is denser than basically any place in the US, and people are obsessed with their phones. Mobile bandwidth works just fine. For 4k video? No, it doesn't. Also, Singapore is probably spammed with microcells so your phone actually connects to a 5G cell that is only a bit more away than your WiFi router. I was in Singapore last week, and I'm writing this from China. And no, mobile Internet in…

> It's both. The US favors low-density housing, as it's much more people-friendly than any other alternative. The other option is high-density Downtown hellscapes with scyscrapers. Both areas are not great for wireless.

Alas, the US presents a false dilemma here: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_middle_housing

> Also, Singapore is probably spammed with microcells so your phone actually connects to a 5G cell that is only a bit more away than your WiFi router.

Yes, and that's great. The density of cells goes up with the density of people.

> I was in Singapore last week, and I'm writing this from China. And no, mobile Internet in both countries can't compete with wired broadband.

The free government wifi we get here in many train stations and hawker centres regularly gives me 50 Mbps (on fast.com), and I never got less than 10 Mbps.

That's plenty fast for many applications, especially when it's free.

4G and 5G Mobile broadband is usually a lot faster than that.

> Only cable is capable of 1G speeds.

Singtel advertises that they have Gigabit mobile, and that's on 4G technology. 5G is going to be faster.

> There are companies that provide alternative water service, they are often used to fill or drain swimming pools.

Interesting. How do they get the water to you?

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#334
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I live in Singapore which is denser than basically any place in the US, and people are obsessed with their phones. Mobile bandwidth works just fine. For 4k video? No, it doesn't. Also, Singapore is probably spammed with microcells so your phone actually connects to a 5G cell that is only a bit more away than your WiFi router. I was in Singapore last week, and I'm writing this from China. And no, mobile Internet in…

> It's both. The US favors low-density housing, as it's much more people-friendly than any other alternative. The other option is high-density Downtown hellscapes with scyscrapers. Both areas are not great for wireless. Alas, the US presents a false dilemma here: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_middle_housing > Also, Singapore is probably spammed with microcells so your phone actually connects to a 5G cell…

> Alas, the US presents a false dilemma here: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_middle_housing

That's beside the point. Nobody is going to rebuild the entire US for better Internet.

> Yes, and that's great. The density of cells goes up with the density of people.

The problem here is the same. If you can get connectivity very close to consumers, you might as well just provide fiber to home.

> The free government wifi we get here in many train stations and hawker centres regularly gives me 50 Mbps (on fast.com), and I never got less than 10 Mbps.

See? Free handouts from government, not multiple competing providers.

> Singtel advertises that they have Gigabit mobile, and that's on 4G technology. 5G is going to be faster.

4G peaks at 100mbps per channel, you can use multiple channels for about 500mbps in total. But that's shared across _all_ users. 5G has better efficiency, so you can get about 2gbps in total for low-frequency (i.e. actually useful) bands.

That's why "1Gbps" mobile Internet borders on false advertising. You _can_ get that speed, but only if all the stars align. It also won't be super-reliable.

> Interesting. How do they get the water to you?

Tanker trucks. It is usually cheaper than municipal water sources because pool filling companies can reuse the water. They also don't need to purify it to drinking water standards (in fact, they can _not_, pool water has to contain fairly high levels of chlorine).

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not __caused__ by FPTP Isn't it? FPTP makes it all but impossible to sustain a third party because of the vote splitting effect. Even when there have been new major parties in the past, they replaced one of the major parties instead of coexisting alongside them for any significant period of time. The most viable districts for minor parties like the Green Party are the ones where the least similar major party i…

> Isn't it? FPTP makes it all but impossible to sustain a third party because of the vote splitting effect. I guess it depends how you are using "cause." Is it a causal variable? Sure, I wouldn't push against that. But I want to stress rather that it is a pressure rather than the only contributing variable. That there are more variables with similarly strong pressures, such that by fixing voting we shouldn't expect t…

> But I want to stress rather that it is a pressure rather than the only contributing variable. That there are more variables with similarly strong pressures, such that by fixing voting we shouldn't expect to have a stable system with multiple parties overnight.

I'm not sure that's the case, at least if you're willing to extend "overnight" to something like "over two or three election cycles."

If we were to adopt e.g. approval voting, the immediate effect would be that existing third party candidates who currently get ~1.2% of the vote would be able to get 20-30%, because voters would no longer have to be concerned about "wasting" their vote on a non-major party candidate they might actually prefer. In a small number of districts, like Libertarians in parts of New Hampshire or Greens in parts of California, the third party candidate might even immediately win.

Which in turn would change the nature of the very next election, because the media would have no excuse to dismiss a candidate who got 30% approval in the previous election when the losing major party candidate only got 32% -- or 29%. Then third party candidates get into the debates and have the opportunity to turn their 30% into 55%.

Moreover, it doesn't take a lot of seats to make a difference. Suppose the Republicans have 48 seats, the Democrats have 49 and a third party has 3. Those 3 seats are all either of the major parties need for a majority, so the third party would have a significant amount of influence.

> You can of course become just enough representative. This might be a helpful video to visualize this issue

Isn't this exactly the thing which is solved by cardinal systems? If you put candidate A, B and C or policy A, B and C all on the ballot together and have people rate them, there is no longer an ordering problem because you're not holding separate votes for A vs. B and, B vs. C and C vs. A. If Policy A gets a higher average rating than Policies B or C then it will always win when they're all on the ballot until voter preferences change.

The people choosing which candidates or policies make it onto the ballot have a lot of power, but that's always the case. Even if 100% of voters agree that Policy A is the best policy, if the only policies on the ballot are B and C then nobody can vote for Policy A. Obvious solution is to allow any policy or candidate onto the ballot that can gather a threshold number of signatures, instead of giving control over this to some manipulative autocrats.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply put, if you can band together to pool votes somehow (e.g. by agreeing to disagree on some matters to some extent), you consistently win over those who do not. This leads to coalitions, not necessarily parties. And then the coalition changes as a result of elections, because a different combination of blocs can form a majority. It also doesn't necessarily have to be the same set of people even within an elect…

Voter coalitions are just parties in their earliest proto-stage. Coalition politics necessarily requires some amount of tit-for-tat and trust building, which forms long-term connections, which lead to organizations like parties over the long term. You can't ignore human mass psychology here; working together towards a common goal is not something that can just be completely disregarded in the next electoral cycle. Th…

> Voter coalitions are just parties in their earliest proto-stage. Coalition politics necessarily requires some amount of tit-for-tat and trust building, which forms long-term connections, which lead to organizations like parties over the long term.

The difference is that the majority coalition changes with every election, which prevents ossification. The positions of Democrats and Republicans are fairly stable over time; the positions of a majority coalition will depend entirely on its membership.

> Any single candidate, however, is effectively a packaged bundle of policies on all those orthogonal issues. That bundling is the problem.

The bundling is a feature, provided that similar but not identical candidates aren't suppressed by the voting system. It allows the candidate to find the compromise on each issue that best satisfies the district, or lose to someone who does.

> I think that any claim that representative democracy somehow does not also lead to "unchecked populism" has been disproven by experience of the past century or so. All this stuff about how it lets you have wise, even-handed leaders that "temper the mob sentiment" was ultimately just wishful thinking - it turns out that those kinds of leaders generally tend to lose elections to populists.

This happens when the representatives are all just proxy votes. The degenerate case is where you elect someone to represent you for the vote on a single bill and then elect a new representative whenever there is a new bill. Obviously that isn't going to act as much of a check on populism.

But now consider the original structure of the US Senate. Senators were appointed by state legislatures across staggered 6-year terms. In order to enact a populist federal policy, you have to capture a majority of state legislatures, then you had to hold that majority for six years to replace the majority of Senators. In order to enact a populist policy expanding federal power, you had to overcome the tendency for state legislatures not to appoint Senators favoring the expansion of federal over state power. It actually worked pretty well until the 17th Amendment broke it by causing Senators to be directly elected. After that populism was unavoidable whenever the majority party in the House matched the one in the Senate. By no coincidence did this then happen immediately.

Adopt a cardinal voting system so there are more than two viable parties and go back to Senators being elected by state legislatures and see what happens.

> But when you get to that level of decentralization, direct democracy works pretty well beyond just serving as a check on representative bodies, and can itself be made more deliberative with fewer people involved.

If you make the jurisdictions small enough then direct democracy works okay, modulo some constraints on what policies can be enacted so you don't have towns coming up with ways to abuse non-constituents, e.g. by imposing extractive tolls or fines on anyone who has to pass through. Or to pick an existing major problem, zoning to price out existing non-residents. But the hyper-local laws aren't usually the problem to begin with, because then people can viably vote with their feet and the jurisdictions are under significant competitive pressure. The main problem is what to do about federal laws.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#337
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's both. The US favors low-density housing, as it's much more people-friendly than any other alternative. The other option is high-density Downtown hellscapes with scyscrapers. Both areas are not great for wireless. Alas, the US presents a false dilemma here: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_middle_housing > Also, Singapore is probably spammed with microcells so your phone actually connects to a 5G cell…

> Alas, the US presents a false dilemma here: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_middle_housing That's beside the point. Nobody is going to rebuild the entire US for better Internet. > Yes, and that's great. The density of cells goes up with the density of people. The problem here is the same. If you can get connectivity very close to consumers, you might as well just provide fiber to home. > The free governme…

> See? Free handouts from government, not multiple competing providers.

Huh? We have multiple competing providers for normal paid Internet services.

Btw, I called it 'government wifi', but I think it's actually provided by multiple competing companies (but I don't know how it's financed. I assume the government pays for it. You can research for yourself if you care , it's called 'wireless@sgx'.)

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