Live data from Hacker News

The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

321–330 of 337 posts

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People generally like their elected representative This is definitely part of it but not all of it. There's more. I hear people complaining about the exact people they vote for. I think another part of the problem is simply parties. We vote along lines rather than actual beliefs. I actually believe we'd be better off without them. Or at least affiliations on ballots. Like how we do judges. Hand out a booklet, let p…

Parties are a naturally emerging phenomenon in representative democracies, though. Simply put, if you can band together to pool votes somehow (e.g. by agreeing to disagree on some matters to some extent), you consistently win over those who do not. So it's inevitable that someone will do just that, and then others will respond in kind. Fundamentally, this is a problem with representative democracy in general. There's…

> Parties are a naturally emerging phenomenon in representative democracies, though.

My main point is about putting party affiliation on ballots. I have less of a problem with the existence of parties than I do as making it the only deciding factor in a person's decision to vote a certain way.

I want people banding together over ideas rather than labels. While this may be the intent of parties, we can observe that in our current form, labels are more important than ideas. So my point is about adding a rather minimal amount of friction between the two. So that we can better distinguish labels from ideas.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#322
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, ISPs are far from a natural monopoly. What makes you think they are? Especially if you take mobile broadband, paid 'public' wifi and satellite internet into account. (Regulations that make market entry harder push things into the monopoly direction, but that's far from 'natural'. See some of the recent troubles SpaceX has been having.) See also https://siepr.stanford.edu/publications/policy-brief/net-neu... or h…

> Huh, ISPs are far from a natural monopoly. Black is white. War is peace. Yeah, we know that. > What makes you think they are? Especially if you take mobile broadband, paid 'public' wifi and satellite internet into account. Neither mobile nor satellite (even Starlink) can compete for the main Internet connection for the majority of people. Around 50-70% of the US population has exactly ONE choice of a wired broadban…

Why do you restrict your comparison to wired connections only? No one cares how the internet comes into the house.

Btw, you can also do ethernet-over-powerline for the last mile. And there's tv cables, and the plain-old-telephone wires already in the ground.

If there's not enough competition, you should perhaps looks into regulation that's strangling that competition; instead of assuming blindly that more regulation is the answer to problems caused by too much regulation.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not __caused__ by FPTP, but yeah that certainly doesn't help. But I am glad that my excessive campaigning on this site for Approval/Star/cardinal systems has had some effect :) (Very happy to see ordinal systems not being suggested) There's much more complexity to it all, but yeah, voting systems are important. The cardinal systems are just about better embedding preference while minimizing the capacity to hack.…

> It's not __caused__ by FPTP Isn't it? FPTP makes it all but impossible to sustain a third party because of the vote splitting effect. Even when there have been new major parties in the past, they replaced one of the major parties instead of coexisting alongside them for any significant period of time. The most viable districts for minor parties like the Green Party are the ones where the least similar major party i…

> Isn't it? FPTP makes it all but impossible to sustain a third party because of the vote splitting effect.

I guess it depends how you are using "cause." Is it a causal variable? Sure, I wouldn't push against that. But I want to stress rather that it is a pressure rather than the only contributing variable. That there are more variables with similarly strong pressures, such that by fixing voting we shouldn't expect to have a stable system with multiple parties overnight. Unfortunate as is, things are never that simple. Even more unfortunately, not being transparent about this seems to have the effect of making more progress because people will reframe things as "well we were promised x would fix y, and it didn't, so why should we expect z to be any different?"

But I want to be abundantly clear, I am very in favor of changing to cardinal systems and it is one of the few things I take very seriously when it comes to politics. It is hard to know me and not know about approval and star. You could call me annoying lol. But I want to also make clear that while this is an important step, it isn't the end. It is especially important to remember that democracies are not stable equilibria, but unstable. We will always need to take care and never get lazy. It's unfortunate, but that is the price of freedom. Luckily with most things, effort is low to maintain systems if you are consistent. Unluckily, we're really bad at maintenance and think it is best to fix things when they are problems rather than fixing things before they're broken (a much cheaper solution in money, time, and effort). We've been fooled by "don't fix what ain't broke." That's actually the best time to fix things.

> But these things are related.

I agree. And that's part of an even larger coupled system. The tyranny of coupled systems is that you can't solve the problem by solving one equation at a time. You have to solve them together.

I'll give you an added incentive for cardinal systems that you might not be aware of. They're also REALLY good for analysis. Much better than ordinal actually. Reason being exactly why they are good for voting too actually. It is all about how we embed information. Cardinal (with exception of approval) has the benefit of non-fixed distances being placed upon candidates. While this doesn't have infinite resolution, it can allow us to express how much more we like someone than someone else. You probably know this part but it needed be restated. The analysis part comes down to looking at all these interactions beyond who just wins an election. You have a much better idea about where your voters actual preferences are. You do likely have to end up doing some proxy estimations here (such as most of winning candidate A's voters who did not pick them as their primary candidate picked candidate B. This suggest A should shift more towards B's policy for proper representation! Not only do we pick a better candidate, but we have a clearer picture of where the actual public preference is. This can, and should, be used even down to a regional level to help candidates become the best representatives they can.

BUT like all things, this too can be hacked. You can of course become just enough representative. This might be a helpful video to visualize this issue[0]. I should also add that of course voter preference actually lies along a much higher dimensional manifold than the one we are expressing with any proposed voting system. I don't actually suggest increasing the dimensionality because you have to balance simplicity and transparency. But there is a problem that distances are far more complicated of a subject than many actually like to believe. This is actually at the core of the Curse of Dimensionality (the furthest point becomes more difficult to distinguish from the nearest point, which is why it is generally discussed with kNNs, but generally this isn't always stated or remembered). It's also important to remember that operations may not always be well defined. I am mentioning this because the issue being discussed in [0] can be exploited in any dimension and any distance function we set. This can better illustrate the point I made about unstable equilibria. And you'll notice their suggested defense explicitly depends on the public coming together to act as a coalition and to treat policy setters (government) as an adversary. Which we both have agreed in the past is a core American ideal. It is why I am against labeling and any form of tribalism. But we must admit this is a difficult task, even if it is a core concept of what makes civilization possible in the first place: considering your neighbors. So I just want to always stress that. Don't just consider what is best for you, or for your family. But make sure to always consider those around you, especially those you disagree with, because they are the ones that can be leveraged against you (and you against them!) to have a worse outcome for everyone.

The tyranny of the modern world is that it is complex and interconnected. That we've solved most of the simple problems. So the dangers that are presented to us generally are due to abstraction and complexity. There are not more "first order" (if this then that) problems. And anyone trying to sell you that is either naive or deceiving you. Even if that person is ourselves (it often is).

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goQ4ii-zBMw

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#324
post #45

I think the article gets network slicing wrong. Using network slicing instead of the traffic shaping that the mobile edge router probably supports is a strange idea. The showcase network slicing use case was public safety comms. Network slicing is AFAIK not much used because it clashes with roaming. The article describes network slicing as reserving spectrum for certain apps. That's not how it works. It reserves capa…

So surprised I had to scroll too far for this reply. I actually work for one of the major US carriers. My job is literally to figure out how to apply the technical capabilities of 5G to solve business problems. NONE of the US carriers have figured out how to actually deliver network slicing beyond, say, reserving capacity for first responders. And, as you say, it’s about capacity, not speed per se. We want to make su…

iOS 17 added explicit support for 5G slicing for QoS in consumer apps: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/network/nwparamete...

Android 14 added 5G slicing upsell for consumer apps: https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/5g-slicing#5g-s...

This is imminent.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#325

Why do I get the feeling that this is overly dramatic? A network operator works to install exceptionally fast internet for limited applications and the data transfer. But this exceptionally fast internet is seen as biased. And instead it is better if the network operator didn’t install any such service. What kinds of limited applications will be given priority? The network operators’ own information systems; their ow…

I must be missing something in the discussion. My perception of the network neutrality is that it is supposed to force ISPs to treat every traffic the same. The network operator can still prioritize packages about network balancing etc. There is no need for routing update after a node goes down to wait thousands of packages for streaming. However, this doesn't mean that they can favor their own streaming service over…

The conflict of interest part is a bit funny. Keeping network operators from participating and competing with other web services is going to weaken the network industry. Losses in one sector will cause bankruptcy, if other sectors do not make fill in the losses.

A similar situation occurred with transportation companies in the US. Rail companies were prohibited from operating buses because of a conflict of interest. Rail failed. Busses prospered. Until both industries failed. And now airlines prosper.

We are just one stone throw away from causing network operators to be bored with their jobs. And then abandon ship until some weak dipstick can’t get a job anywhere else and ends up with securing your boring network.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest single reason why the USA's (and to a lesser extent Canada's) internet is shite... Speak for yourself, but I live on the west coast and my Internet connection is great. Edit: downvoters, what are the problems with U.S. internet?

> Edit: downvoters, what are the problems with U.S. internet? once you get outside of truly major metro areas, internet access tends to go to shit. i've got 1G fiber internet in Seattle now, but in Everett ~25M shared access comcast is the best you can do in a lot of places. and it isn't like you need to be surrounded by cows and horses to have bad internet, you can have the boeing factory just down the road, but you…

(also that 25M cable modem is going to be twice as expensive as 100M fiber in a major city and at least half the country only has access to DSL at those kinds of costs for anything half usable)

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must be missing something in the discussion. My perception of the network neutrality is that it is supposed to force ISPs to treat every traffic the same. The network operator can still prioritize packages about network balancing etc. There is no need for routing update after a node goes down to wait thousands of packages for streaming. However, this doesn't mean that they can favor their own streaming service over…

The conflict of interest part is a bit funny. Keeping network operators from participating and competing with other web services is going to weaken the network industry. Losses in one sector will cause bankruptcy, if other sectors do not make fill in the losses. A similar situation occurred with transportation companies in the US. Rail companies were prohibited from operating buses because of a conflict of interest.…

I agree. I think it’s similar to the power grid. Razor sharp margins that keeps falling down and sustainment is being provided by ever decreasing number of professionals or being handed down to folks that don’t know what they are doing. Queue the forest fires in California.

The cost is laying down a fiber network and sustaining it is there and it’s going nowhere. Somebody needs to pay for it. Current approach is to bundle various services under a service umbrella and try to stay profitable. I don’t know what will happen when the streaming boom cools down. It might cause some “network providers” to just bankrupt.

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#329
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Huh, ISPs are far from a natural monopoly. Black is white. War is peace. Yeah, we know that. > What makes you think they are? Especially if you take mobile broadband, paid 'public' wifi and satellite internet into account. Neither mobile nor satellite (even Starlink) can compete for the main Internet connection for the majority of people. Around 50-70% of the US population has exactly ONE choice of a wired broadban…

Why do you restrict your comparison to wired connections only? No one cares how the internet comes into the house. Btw, you can also do ethernet-over-powerline for the last mile. And there's tv cables, and the plain-old-telephone wires already in the ground. If there's not enough competition, you should perhaps looks into regulation that's strangling that competition; instead of assuming blindly that more regulation…

> Why do you restrict your comparison to wired connections only?

Because wireless simply is not enough. There is a pretty fundamental limit to it, called the "sampling theorem". You simply don't have enough available bandwidth for the cell wireless to replace the wired connections, even in moderately dense environments.

This is not a theory, btw. I had T-Mobile 5G "fixed wireless" connection and could immediately tell when major live games were on. It also became nearly useless during the Superbowl. And that's with T-Mobile limiting the number of subscribers (there's a waitlist for 5G home Internet in my area).

> If there's not enough competition, you should perhaps looks into regulation that's strangling that competition; instead of assuming blindly that more regulation is the answer to problems caused by too much regulation.

The main problem is morons who think that you can compete within the ISP market, and thus strangling regulations meant to improve it.

After all, don't we all have 10 different tap water and sewage providers?

Re: The FCC needs to stop 5G fast lanes

#330
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you restrict your comparison to wired connections only? No one cares how the internet comes into the house. Btw, you can also do ethernet-over-powerline for the last mile. And there's tv cables, and the plain-old-telephone wires already in the ground. If there's not enough competition, you should perhaps looks into regulation that's strangling that competition; instead of assuming blindly that more regulation…

> Why do you restrict your comparison to wired connections only? Because wireless simply is not enough. There is a pretty fundamental limit to it, called the "sampling theorem". You simply don't have enough available bandwidth for the cell wireless to replace the wired connections, even in moderately dense environments. This is not a theory, btw. I had T-Mobile 5G "fixed wireless" connection and could immediately tel…

> There is a pretty fundamental limit to it, called the "sampling theorem". You simply don't have enough available bandwidth for the cell wireless to replace the wired connections, even in moderately dense environments.

I live in Singapore which is denser than basically any place in the US, and people are obsessed with their phones. Mobile bandwidth works just fine.

I suspect your underwhelming 5G experience could be related with cells in your area being rather big, so they had many people in them? If you have a higher density of people, you need a higher density of cells.

> After all, don't we all have 10 different tap water and sewage providers?

Try starting up a new tap water or sewage provider. I don't think the government will let you.

In any case, providing new 'last mile' connectivity whether with wires or with water pipes is hard to make work economically, if someone else is already there with an established service. (So in that sense I agree that last mile connectivity does have network effects. Though I wouldn't classify things binary into 'natural monopoly' or not; it's a spectrum.)

In any case, that's why I was emphasising the different wires we already have (cable tv, plain old phone cables, power line, and in some places optical fibre, etc) and the wireless options (3G, 4G, 5G, wifi, satellite, and the more directed exotic microwave transmission, etc). I probably missed a few.

If you can sort out the last mile, or you can piggy back on some already existing last mile, the tendency for what you call 'natural monopoly' drops a lot.

If there's insufficient competition in the US, perhaps don't blame 'nature'.

Post reply on HN